But the winner loses all the same
When he throws his friends away.
Farewell
"the lousy little poets coming round, trying to sound like Charlie Manson. Hear the white man dancing". And do you think that dancer is not broken somewhere in his heart? How could he aspire to such wisdom? Someone who is sure, who knows the whole way is not there. You need hesitation and sorrow to be that dancer; an effective poet... A varying combination of will, of experience, of a sense of the divine and trepidation. Poets who 'have it all together' do not. Fuckwits like Manson do not. Neither do politicians. Some prostitutes have it. So do some drunks. You won't find it in those towers of steel and concrete downtown. Won't find it sitting in a Porsche. But you'll find it in brown kelp at the beach, in the lines on the face of an old bum.
you can pause and reflect and come up with nothing more than a diary entry and call it "a poem" and yourself a "poet." That does not make it true...most likely it is just self deceiving. Or you can think about what you are creating, what you have created. Does it have any significance outside yourself? Or is it just self indulgent heart drippings that should remain private? Ask yourself, did I (as poem writer) take the time to find the exact word or phrase that fits what I want to say? Or did I find simple rhymes and let the downhill flow of them steer the poem through whatever line ends pop up and numbly call them "fitting" and dash it off to the electronic press for approval...before spending any time being self critical, self editing, to take the time to learn something.
Point is a person who is going to dabble in the art of words, should take some damn time to think about what they are saying, how they are saying it, why they are saying it and then ask if it is fit for public consumption. All that is asked is a little (just a little) 'thought' be placed on an art form that deserves that much respect.
I don't think a 'broken heart' is on the required list of attributes to good poem writing. Respect for words and the art form, I think is.
Laurie
Point is a person who is going to dabble in the art of words, should take some damn time to think about what they are saying, how they are saying it, why they are saying it and then ask if it is fit for public consumption. All that is asked is a little (just a little) 'thought' be placed on an art form that deserves that much respect.
I don't think a 'broken heart' is on the required list of attributes to good poem writing. Respect for words and the art form, I think is.
Laurie
Boss,
why the white man dancing is just what you think it is?
as the manson phrase, I think it describes what some can't do... a white man can't dance as a black man... a lousy poet can't sound as strong as Manson used to kill...
Your interpretation doesn't have to be mine. I thought we were starting to understand each other, but your messianic and authoritarian words make everything difficult.
regards,
Muddy.
why the white man dancing is just what you think it is?
as the manson phrase, I think it describes what some can't do... a white man can't dance as a black man... a lousy poet can't sound as strong as Manson used to kill...
Your interpretation doesn't have to be mine. I thought we were starting to understand each other, but your messianic and authoritarian words make everything difficult.
regards,
Muddy.
-
mickey_one
- Posts: 1533
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:11 pm
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excellent analysis, thanksLaurieAK wrote:you can pause and reflect and come up with nothing more than a diary entry and call it "a poem" and yourself a "poet." That does not make it true...most likely it is just self deceiving. Or you can think about what you are creating, what you have created. Does it have any significance outside yourself? Or is it just self indulgent heart drippings that should remain private? Ask yourself, did I (as poem writer) take the time to find the exact word or phrase that fits what I want to say? Or did I find simple rhymes and let the downhill flow of them steer the poem through whatever line ends pop up and numbly call them "fitting" and dash it off to the electronic press for approval...before spending any time being self critical, self editing, to take the time to learn something.
Point is a person who is going to dabble in the art of words, should take some damn time to think about what they are saying, how they are saying it, why they are saying it and then ask if it is fit for public consumption. All that is asked is a little (just a little) 'thought' be placed on an art form that deserves that much respect.
I don't think a 'broken heart' is on the required list of attributes to good poem writing. Respect for words and the art form, I think is.
Laurie
That was my feeling about what Laurie wrote, too, Michael. An excellent analysis of poetry being written as an art form. Very detailed, yet still succinct... and right on the money in concept.
For me, regarding this forum, however, it's a matter of context. I feel there's room in this world, on this forum, for poetry being written as a form of personal expression, as well. For me, that's where the difference lies. Everything that Laurie has said is absolutely valid and preferred when a poem is written to be judged, published, or put forth as a work of art; yet, for a poem that was written as a personal expression, and is now simply being shared, I feel these excellent guidelines are not quite as instructive or useful, and certainly not mandatory.
We've 'been here' before ~ but since it's come up again, I'll express the differences I feel about it. If this "Member's Poetry" section were part of an online class in poetry, where the expectation and requirement is to be assessed and graded; if this section were part of an ongoing competition; if this section were a 'poetry writing group,' where there is a goal of writing, improving, writing more, and improving more, toward [generally speaking] a goal of getting published, even if in a small chronicle; if all the people here had hopes of becoming published or renowned poets; or even if people were saying, "This is the best I could do, can go no further, and need input, feedback, and correction on what I've done, for it to read as perfectly as possible as a 'quality poem,' it would be a different scenario.
For a poetry competition, yes, I feel it's important to employ the guidelines spelled out by Laurie. It's a competition and your work will most certainly be judged.
However, for the members coming to share in this section, I've never gotten the sense that the majority of them expect to be, or are even trying to be, a Leonard Cohen, Rumi, e.e. cummings, T.S. Eliot, Irving Layton, Emily Dickinson, Robert Frost, Sylvia Plath, or any of the other greats who have 'made it' in a realm where 'making it' is extremely difficult, at best. I have gotten the sense, however, that they wanted to share something that they had written about something that was important to them, enough to write about it, in 'encapsulated' and concentrated form, which is a challenge in itself [or seems to me to be].
For me, what I see coming through the words and expression of those who contribute in this section tells me something about their hearts, their hopes, their aspirations, their struggles, their pain, and their path in this life. I have no idea whether Sandra [for a quick example] writes poems worthy of being published by this-but-not-that publishing company, and I don't care. Even if I did, with two poetry books published by the same company, some readers would buy it, others wouldn't; some critics would laud it, others would pan it; some poets would be given awards, others neglected. I've gotten a sense of who Sandra is in a lovely, lyrical way, that I never would have gotten, otherwise. Lovely visions have entered my mind as a result of some the haikus written by people here. Some of those images remain. I have no idea whether they would stand a single test of a classical, haiku writer, but I don't care. I guess one could say my 'standards' aren't high enough, but I feel that's not the issue. It's about my expectations... and I don't feel the need for them when someone shares what they consider [and I consider] to be a poem here. My only 'expectation' would be that feeling of safety amongst friends. I know that 'expectation' is not always met, so I guess it's better if I express it as a hope.
Sure, they could have spent many hours, days, months, or years honing it, prior to bringing it to this online community. Everyone's writing capabilities vary. Someone whose writing is compromised because of their not being a native-English speaker; or because writing doesn't happen to be their forte; or because, no matter what else they may or may not be able to do, they do feel able [or compelled, due to their particular circumstances] to find some words that for them say what they want them to say, and then have the courage to bring them here for what they know will be scrutiny ~ well, hey may never get it 'right' enough to meet the standards, and I [along with some others who simply appreciate reading what people have written] would never get to read a single thing, because it didn't measure up. Who knows? Perhaps, not 'measuring up' has been the one thing that's plagued them all their life, and here they go again...
Those standards that Laurie expressed are primo excellent for the arenas where 'standards' are understood and necessary to be applied. For me, here, I prefer seeing the people where they are and accepting where they're at... whatever that means. If they feel most comfortable coming here to share in the form of poetry, or pseudo-poetry, as some might judgementally say, then fine, share however you can, however you prefer.
This isn't even a poetry site, but a site dedicated to a man who's a poet, amongst many other things. This is a section of that site, a section dedicated for people to share their own words. I love reading what I consider to be a perfectly-crafted poem. It's thrilling, the way some people are able to make their words follow their commands. It's an incredible skill!!! I hope that along with those poets sharing, that other people will continue to share their hearts and minds, with their verses, whether or not they measure up to someone else's objective standard.
So, Partisan, was this an example of 200 words, where 20 would've done, or maybe even two? Well, perhaps so, but people's hearts are more important to me than their writing skills. That includes my own.
Love,
Lizzy
For me, regarding this forum, however, it's a matter of context. I feel there's room in this world, on this forum, for poetry being written as a form of personal expression, as well. For me, that's where the difference lies. Everything that Laurie has said is absolutely valid and preferred when a poem is written to be judged, published, or put forth as a work of art; yet, for a poem that was written as a personal expression, and is now simply being shared, I feel these excellent guidelines are not quite as instructive or useful, and certainly not mandatory.
We've 'been here' before ~ but since it's come up again, I'll express the differences I feel about it. If this "Member's Poetry" section were part of an online class in poetry, where the expectation and requirement is to be assessed and graded; if this section were part of an ongoing competition; if this section were a 'poetry writing group,' where there is a goal of writing, improving, writing more, and improving more, toward [generally speaking] a goal of getting published, even if in a small chronicle; if all the people here had hopes of becoming published or renowned poets; or even if people were saying, "This is the best I could do, can go no further, and need input, feedback, and correction on what I've done, for it to read as perfectly as possible as a 'quality poem,' it would be a different scenario.
For a poetry competition, yes, I feel it's important to employ the guidelines spelled out by Laurie. It's a competition and your work will most certainly be judged.
However, for the members coming to share in this section, I've never gotten the sense that the majority of them expect to be, or are even trying to be, a Leonard Cohen, Rumi, e.e. cummings, T.S. Eliot, Irving Layton, Emily Dickinson, Robert Frost, Sylvia Plath, or any of the other greats who have 'made it' in a realm where 'making it' is extremely difficult, at best. I have gotten the sense, however, that they wanted to share something that they had written about something that was important to them, enough to write about it, in 'encapsulated' and concentrated form, which is a challenge in itself [or seems to me to be].
For me, what I see coming through the words and expression of those who contribute in this section tells me something about their hearts, their hopes, their aspirations, their struggles, their pain, and their path in this life. I have no idea whether Sandra [for a quick example] writes poems worthy of being published by this-but-not-that publishing company, and I don't care. Even if I did, with two poetry books published by the same company, some readers would buy it, others wouldn't; some critics would laud it, others would pan it; some poets would be given awards, others neglected. I've gotten a sense of who Sandra is in a lovely, lyrical way, that I never would have gotten, otherwise. Lovely visions have entered my mind as a result of some the haikus written by people here. Some of those images remain. I have no idea whether they would stand a single test of a classical, haiku writer, but I don't care. I guess one could say my 'standards' aren't high enough, but I feel that's not the issue. It's about my expectations... and I don't feel the need for them when someone shares what they consider [and I consider] to be a poem here. My only 'expectation' would be that feeling of safety amongst friends. I know that 'expectation' is not always met, so I guess it's better if I express it as a hope.
Sure, they could have spent many hours, days, months, or years honing it, prior to bringing it to this online community. Everyone's writing capabilities vary. Someone whose writing is compromised because of their not being a native-English speaker; or because writing doesn't happen to be their forte; or because, no matter what else they may or may not be able to do, they do feel able [or compelled, due to their particular circumstances] to find some words that for them say what they want them to say, and then have the courage to bring them here for what they know will be scrutiny ~ well, hey may never get it 'right' enough to meet the standards, and I [along with some others who simply appreciate reading what people have written] would never get to read a single thing, because it didn't measure up. Who knows? Perhaps, not 'measuring up' has been the one thing that's plagued them all their life, and here they go again...
Those standards that Laurie expressed are primo excellent for the arenas where 'standards' are understood and necessary to be applied. For me, here, I prefer seeing the people where they are and accepting where they're at... whatever that means. If they feel most comfortable coming here to share in the form of poetry, or pseudo-poetry, as some might judgementally say, then fine, share however you can, however you prefer.
This isn't even a poetry site, but a site dedicated to a man who's a poet, amongst many other things. This is a section of that site, a section dedicated for people to share their own words. I love reading what I consider to be a perfectly-crafted poem. It's thrilling, the way some people are able to make their words follow their commands. It's an incredible skill!!! I hope that along with those poets sharing, that other people will continue to share their hearts and minds, with their verses, whether or not they measure up to someone else's objective standard.
So, Partisan, was this an example of 200 words, where 20 would've done, or maybe even two? Well, perhaps so, but people's hearts are more important to me than their writing skills. That includes my own.
Love,
Lizzy
Laurie said:
"Or you can think about what you are creating, what you have created. Does it have any significance outside yourself? Or is it just self indulgent heart drippings that should remain private? "
I think good poetry writing does not exclude heart drippings , that is up to the author, and many are interested in other people´s emotions
Laurie said
"Ask yourself, did I (as poem writer) take the time to find the exact word or phrase that fits what I want to say? Or did I find simple rhymes and let the downhill flow of them steer the poem through whatever line ends pop up and numbly call them "fitting" and dash it off to the electronic press for approval...before spending any time being self critical, self editing, to take the time to learn something. "
I think nobody writes without thinking and spending time self editing and being self critical.
"Point is a person who is going to dabble in the art of words, should take some damn time to think about what they are saying, how they are saying it, why they are saying it and then ask if it is FITS FOR THE PUBLIC CONSUMPTION All that is asked is a little (just a little) 'thought' be placed on an art form that deserves that much respect. "
I think there is public for any subject
Laurie said
"I don't think a 'broken heart' is on the required list of attributes to good poem writing. Respect for words and the art form, I think is. "
I think a broken heart may be on the list....
and the intention when somebody writes is to be read, to be understood and to be criticized too but it is necessary that the person that makes the critic understand that all people are different, all have different cultures and different inteligences
"Or you can think about what you are creating, what you have created. Does it have any significance outside yourself? Or is it just self indulgent heart drippings that should remain private? "
I think good poetry writing does not exclude heart drippings , that is up to the author, and many are interested in other people´s emotions
Laurie said
"Ask yourself, did I (as poem writer) take the time to find the exact word or phrase that fits what I want to say? Or did I find simple rhymes and let the downhill flow of them steer the poem through whatever line ends pop up and numbly call them "fitting" and dash it off to the electronic press for approval...before spending any time being self critical, self editing, to take the time to learn something. "
I think nobody writes without thinking and spending time self editing and being self critical.
"Point is a person who is going to dabble in the art of words, should take some damn time to think about what they are saying, how they are saying it, why they are saying it and then ask if it is FITS FOR THE PUBLIC CONSUMPTION All that is asked is a little (just a little) 'thought' be placed on an art form that deserves that much respect. "
I think there is public for any subject
Laurie said
"I don't think a 'broken heart' is on the required list of attributes to good poem writing. Respect for words and the art form, I think is. "
I think a broken heart may be on the list....
and the intention when somebody writes is to be read, to be understood and to be criticized too but it is necessary that the person that makes the critic understand that all people are different, all have different cultures and different inteligences
These two lost track of the rules... too.
This is placed here because serendipity/synchronicity brought it to my Yahoo inbox from a friend. It is so reminiscent of how rules are certainly great for certain things; yet, the failure to follow them can result in some of those moments that, as the final thought says, take your breath away. It is a measure of our lives and some of the poems I've read by contributing members here may not have followed the rules of poetry, but they have surely taken my breath away.
Note: There are four, phenomenal photos that accompany this brief article, that I would love to post here. I don't consider doing that often, as I've always thought there was a 'space' issue related to it; however, these photos are worth the space. Yet, I don't know how to do this. I tried just now. If someone would please instruct me on it, I will post them as part of this posting. Thanks. They're currently in a Yahoo e-mail. If you know how to do it, I could also e-mail it to you, and you could place them in a separate posting.
Love,
Lizzy
NAIROBI (AFP) - A baby hippopotamus that survived the tsunami
waves on the Kenyan coast has formed a strong bond with a giant male
century-old tortoise, in an animal facility in the port city of Mombassa,
officials said.
The hippopotamus, nicknamed Owen and weighing about 300 kilograms
(650 pounds), was swept down Sabaki River into the Indian Ocean, then
forced back to shore when tsunami waves struck the Kenyan coast on December 26, before wildlife rangers rescued him.
"It is incredible. A-less-than-a-year-old hippo has adopted a
male tortoise, about a century old, and the tortoise seems to be very happy with being a 'mother'," ecologist Paula Kahumbu, who is in charge of Lafarge Park, told AFP.
"After it was swept and lost its mother, the hippo was
traumatized. It had to look for something to be a surrogate mother. Fortunately, it landed on the tortoise and established a strong bond. They swim, eat and sleep together," the ecologist added. "The hippo follows the tortoise exactly the way it follows its mother. If somebody approaches the tortoise, the hippo becomes aggressive, as if protecting its biological mother," Kahumbu added.
"The hippo is a young baby, he was left at a very tender age and
by nature, hippos are social animals that like to stay with their mothers
for four years," he explained.
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the
moments that take our breath away.
Note: There are four, phenomenal photos that accompany this brief article, that I would love to post here. I don't consider doing that often, as I've always thought there was a 'space' issue related to it; however, these photos are worth the space. Yet, I don't know how to do this. I tried just now. If someone would please instruct me on it, I will post them as part of this posting. Thanks. They're currently in a Yahoo e-mail. If you know how to do it, I could also e-mail it to you, and you could place them in a separate posting.
Love,
Lizzy