Hi Red Poppy ~
. . . before someone is tempted to take a pot-shot at you.
Please work on your powers of observation in this section, including with what you have written.
Apparent "niceness" guarantees nothing about a person.
Not sure what you mean by that, though I have specific ideas. "... to say the least" is my only 'add-on'-style response to it, however. The Hansel-and-Gretel method is interesting, though disappointing. It takes a lot to make up a person, doesn't it?
Yes... I did invite the editing. However, compared to the content of what I was presenting, my personal comments were few and quite unintrusive in the scheme of things. I guess I should have been more specific or, better yet, questioned specifically as to what 'portions' you were referring prior to requesting your pro bono editing services. I made the mistake of thinking you meant our actual discussion, not the several paragraphs, composing nearly the whole of one, relatively shorter, posting. Seeing you go for the personal comments, however, I was inclined to suggest that since you obviously felt that this shadow request that I self-edit was merited with those areas, that in that sense you ought to self-edit yourself, as well. I'm not pretending, at all, that it wasn't my idea... however, since the topic is SELF-EDIT, introduced by you, it seemed a rather appropriate time to point you in the direction of your SELF. So, enough on that.
I've been looking high and low this morning for the book from which I quoted the section, so I can quote the other; as the next... or very nearly next... one relates specifically to the issue at hand, and in a manner which I feel you will find pleasing. The bottom line is that I feel the things you're saying about working on one's poems have a lot of merit. It's only a matter of venue, intention, and agreement. There are/have been people here who have full time jobs which they find very satisfying, even jobs they've attended school to attain. I recall a woman veterinarian from Germany who practices homeopathic medicine and who some time ago brought very sweet offerings here. I miss reading those. I never once presumed that she hopes to be published one day, nor that her poetry ought to be approached from that perspective. I have a permanent, very pleasant memory of a bright red cardinal perched on a snow-laden branch, a visual I embraced from a 'haiku' written by a lovely woman, I believe Greta, several years ago. I find it very presumptuous on your part to presume that, that huge cookie-cutter box is one for everyone to be stuffed into. Maybe we should all ALWAYS strive to be our BEST; yet, there are times where one wants simply to relax and to just be... and having this STRIVING imposed upon them serves pretty much to gouge the relaxation and kill the pleasure and the healing of the moment.
I don't consider myself nor my comments mealy-mouthed, at all, Red Poppy... and, unless I'm reading something into what you've said that, somehow, relates to the only one here defending the position I've taken on this [this is not an implicit complaint, as I'm very used to this position... yet, it does serve as a highway marker as to whom you are likely referring in this], I feel it's insulting and inappropriate. Another pot-shot. One of the things of this whole discussion that bothers me is the air of condescension.
Poetry is written for many reasons. If you teach it, I'm surprized that you're not willing to give creedence to the other reasons; and exclusive to them, proclaim that every one who writes poetry really only wants to be Published and that all energy should be expended with that in mind only. When people sign up and pay for a class... the instructor can be as tough as they want... you're probably valued more highly for that AS an instructor. "He's tough, but you sure do learn a lot. It's worth all the aggravation." Here, however, you seem to have self-ordained yourself as a poetry coach, the same as an exercise coach, or an Olympic event coach might be.
Some poetry has been published only since being discovered, after the person's death. Some poetry is written so as to congeal one's thoughts and feelings after a traumatic event, to pay homage, or sometimes to find an outlet so as to survive... and these are very legitimate uses of poetry. They don't need to be passed beneath the microscope of someone seeking, for 'that person's own good,' to push them into being "the BEST they can be." Maybe they're not prepared to measure up to your watermark. Maybe they never will be. Maybe they oughtn't even try to be... maybe they only ought to try to live up to their own goals and aspirations. Nope. However, simply receiving some feedback that confirms they're not alone can be enough.
Contrary to what you keep trying to establish as fact, I do not see this only one way, "my way." From what I'm getting from you, you seem to want to hear those voices, but not if they're not willing to let you destroy and reconstruct what they've written, in their own best interests, of course. If they're not willing to undergo that, then they might as well stay on the porch... and I'm guessing I ought to, as well, since you appear to deem my responses to people as only mealy-mouthed and, therefore, lacking in merit.
You quote Leonard's line: "Sorry for smudging the air with my song." I believe he was being ironic and, if he had followed your advice, he'd have given up. He didn't!
This conclusion doesn't follow with anything I've said. Leonard had goals of being a poet, writer, and then a songwriter. He's worked extremely hard in that. His extremely hard work paid off. He also willingly engaged in a group who had similar aspirations and their 'bylaws' seemed to include verbal brutality with regard to each others' writing. An agreement. Not everyone has the goal of being a poet, writer, or songwriter. Some simply want to be who they are, where they are, and doing what they're doing and/or working toward... which do or don't [and for this, I'm referring to the "don't"] include becoming a published poet. Yet, it's an arena where they want to try their hand... they enjoy reading it, and they want to try to do it themselves; to express things poetically and share what's expressed with some other people, who also enjoy reading and, maybe writing, poetry. They are two, fairly distinct groups.
If you'll read the thread I initiated regarding this issue, you'll see that I suggested that people might make it known when they want corrective feedback on what they've written. Some do. Some don't. It's that simple. Some whom you might think would, don't... and that can be deduced when you see their reactions to what has been "freely given" and unsolicited. Context is all I'm suggesting. Somewhere back there in this thread, you suggested that people need to listen to what's being said about what they've written. My suggestion/request is that you might consider it just as valid to 'listen' to what's behind the writing of some of the contributions here.
Yes, you've noted the passion in some writing, and that's good. I would love to see threads here where, undefensively, people willingly actively engage in this process of critiqueing and editing and all the rest that comes with constructive criticism. Within that, I feel that consideration and respect need to be part of that process. I also feel that everyone who comes here and shares ought not be painted with that same brush... that they didn't really come to a site, where the man about whom it was created is known for his astonishing and phenomenal ability to touch the hearts and souls of people, and for his own remarkable kindness. Rather than just the letter of the law, keep in mind the spirit of the law.
~ Lizzy
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde
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