Pope John Paul II ~ Goodbye To A Good Man

[Andrew McGeever]

Dear Mirek,
Yes, my tone was sarcastic: for that I apologise.
Yes, I've read some of J.P.2's writings (eg speeches from Edinburgh, Liverpool, London during his Papal visit to the U.K.), and I've also read in the press the addresses he gave in Ireland (his first Papal visit), but the last book I read about a pope was John XX111's diary, "Journal of a Soul". That was a long time ago, post "Vatican 2". J.P.2 dismantled all the promise that Council offered (after the papacy of Paul V1 and J.P.1).
The closet and overt support for liberation from oppression in Poland (repeatedly pronounced in the the world's media) was not extended to South America during JP2's ministry. Mirek, the term "liberation theology" is one I'm sure you are familiar with: some close friends, priests, suffered for that by attempting to practise it.
My post is getting "off message".
As I write, my TV is showing the live funeral mass for JP2 from the Vatican.
"a good man"?
He was both loved and disobeyed in equal measure .
I still wish he was disobeyed more; but that's the stuff of another thread.
With respect to "a not very good Catholic",
Andrew.
P.S. Mirek, if you aren't a good Catholic, that makes me a worse atheist!

[bee]

I quit the catholic church long ago. As I’m not a member of the family anymore I don’t have the right nor the interest to criticize inner catholic affairs. I respect this community and expect them to respect me as an atheist as well.

But nonetheless I have the right and the duty to criticize the catholic policy if it has an effect on humanity as a whole.

I light a candle for all AIDS-victims that could have been prevented if John Paul II had a different view on the use of condoms.

Keep up Partisan, you’re not alone!

Simonelimone- is it your understanding about respect to the sorrow and loss of Catholics and others, who share these feelings in the times when perhaps they would deserve some respect, at least for the man they loved ? You have demanded respect for your atheism - or "quit the church long ago", like a job or smoking, we should be respecting greatly.
You are quoting Voltaire, is that a big surprise? If Voltaire is your inspiration and fundament, his ideas being a great "revelation" for a every new found atheist, I'd say- this ir really sweet. Just keep going, dear Simone, will see to what sort of French revolution he is going to prepare you

[Andrew McGeever]

And so it's ended: a global funeral for a global pontif. I watched the mass conducted by Cardinal Ratzinger (maybe the next pope?).
There are other "good" men in the frame, almost all appointed by JP2, and all vetted by him. Is it going to be more of the same? Will we have a pro-tem papacy ("a safe pair of hands"), or will the mould be broken by an African or South American?
No matter who becomes the Bishop of Rome, I guess the message will remain the same: keep the faith.
Andrew.

[lizzytysh]

With regard to Pope John Paul II, I'm grateful for the goodwill this man brought to the world through his Church. For the controversial aspects of his papacy, it seems the expectations are high here, for him to have departed wholly from the ways of the Church and to have turned the Church inside out, as though he weren't even Catholic. On NPR, I listened to an African clergy member speak to the need for people to be self-monitoring and self-regulating in the area of sex. Is this an unreasonable stance for the Church to take? It is a long-standing principle of all, Christian churches that people be monogamous, and that sexual activity occur within the confines of marriage. Yet, Pope John Paul II is ridiculed regarding his stance on condoms because of the prevalence of AIDS in Africa. There is such a mixing of issues here.

I try to draw a parallel in my mind; and can only come up with one, if the issue were alcoholism. There's a pharmaceutical means of addressing drinking through something called Antabuse, something that causes one to become sick if they drink; presumably so they'll then stop drinking. The parallel I consider in this regard might be that if alcoholism were rampant, the Pope should be condoning Antabuse. I might expect a variety of social work agencies to do this, with either Antabuse or condoms, but do I expect the Church to depart from one of its basic tenets, so as to accommodate and address what occurs through sexual activity, oftimes as a result of being non-monogamous or non-abstinent? This is a means of addressing a symptom vs. the core problem. Just as clean needles are passed out to drug addicts in the streets as a stop-gap measure. It's a good, social-work-oriented solution, for the short term.

However, it's not the long-term solution. Regarding these things, as well as condoms, it seems that education would go a long way and, perhaps, do even better. Condoms aren't foolproof, either; if they're [with condoning] even used. Is the Church seriously expected to contort, according to the changing, social mores of the world? Does it not have to stand for something, for its own moral principles? Whether we agree with what they are, or whether we don't, isn't the issue. These [what I consider to be unreasonable] expectations remind me of the repartee punch line, "Is the Pope Catholic?"

I'm no longer a Christian, and have never been a Catholic. I loved the ceremonial aspects of the Church, and at age 18 began studying Catachism. I ended my studies when I asked a reasonable question, on something that was given no reasonable explanation, and was told, "You just need to accept that [what I was being told I should believe] ~ It's 'a mystery' and not for you to know, simply for you to accept." That wasn't acceptable to me then, or now. However, that is nothing more than my personal choice. My niece converted to Catholicism and loves it. I've not been living as a "Christian" and I've been sexual outside of marriage. These have been my choices, and I don't expect any Church or spiritual practice to alter itself to accommodate my choices.

In all of this, I'm feeling far more conservative than my normal, liberal self. I'm amazed by those who would expect that this Pope should have fulfilled all items on a 'given' agenda, before departing this world, or be ridiculed, as a result. For all we know, he may have intended for the Pope who follows to have something of his own to give to the world, some changes that he'll be remembered and revered for. I see Pope John Paul II as being a generous man, one who would be willing to share in the historical changing of the Church. He knew he wasn't going to live long, and that there would be another man to follow in his footsteps. There would still be time ~ very soon ~ for the Church to alter some of its courses, if that's what is felt to be best. He didn't have to be the only one in Modern Times to have positively impacted the Catholic legacy.

I appreciate what Pope John Paul II did do to move the church forward in today's world, and to promote Love and Peace in the world. Perhaps, there are other things that both Catholics and non-Catholics would like to see changed about the Church and its practices. However, to speak 'condemnation' toward a single Pope, who didn't revamp the whole of it, is patently absurd. I think of Roshi and the practices of Zen Buddhism. Does one criticize him for practicing Zen ways?

Legacy of Love

In his death, as in his life, Pope John Paul II, created and left the world with a A Legacy of Love. Millions worldwide gathered in whatever fashion they were able to honour him in his passing, and to celebrate his life through his funeral. As I was awakening this morning, I listened to coverage on the radio, NPR. He leaves this world, amidst the beautiful pomp and circumstance of the Church's ceremonies, in an equally beautiful, simple, wooden box ~ this his humble choice. Even on his funeral day, in South America, there visibly occurs a Hybrid Solar Eclipse. It occurs only 6 times in a century. A poetic, natural occurrence, for someone for whom "hybrid" held meaning, as he worked to join together other elements in this world.

I hope our Andrea and Marco Dolfino and Marinella Cutuli, and others from Italy here, have been able to attend one of these historic events in person. I hope that any Catholics or non-Catholics, from here, have been able to get there, as well.

I feel nothing but gratitude for Pope John Paul II's having lived and given as he did, as one man, who acted honourably in his role as head of the Catholic Church. A good man. His funeral is the largest attended in history. This is not coincidence. It is the manifestation of deep appreciation, love, and respect. He has brought many people, disparate in their values and beliefs, together, worldwide. Thank you to Poland for having borne such a great man.

I pray that, one day, I will be able to visit Pope John Paul II [Karol Wojtyla]'s simple, grave marker in Rome, and pay homage to a man whose life truly made a difference. I will always remember him with Reverence and Love. He cared. He gave until he had nothing left to give, except his caring silence from a window.

Pope John Paul II [Karol Wojtyla] ~ Rest in Love. Rest in Peace.

Love,
Elizabeth

[bee]

Dear Lizzy- thank you very much!
Great post, the best!
love

[lizzytysh]

Our computer system was down, so I showed my supervisor all of my comments and Tchocolatl's joke, transferred together into a Word document. She was raised Catholic, but has since left the Church, for a variety of reasons.

As she read with interest what I have written, I sat thinking. My vision blurred, and a tear spilled from my right eye. Then, they began streaming down my face from both eyes, as I continued to sit, saying nothing. Warm tears, the ones that have a quality all their own, as they come from a deeper, emotional place, inside. As they did, I realized just how deeply I feel about all of this. With so many bad things in the world, and so many people intent on doing wrong, and doing others harm; my heart and spirit grieve to see this singular man [who did so unprecedented-much to do good] discounted by some, for what he didn't do, that they feel he should have.

It reminds me of Leonard, who entered the monastery to be near his dear friend, Roshi, because of his goodness. Pope John Paul II drew people to him in the same way. How many of our own 'enemies' will weep upon hearing of our death? This isn't a matter of doctrine. It's a matter of the heart.

Love,
Elizabeth

[lizzytysh]

Thank you very much, Bee. I was writing my post, just above, at the same time you were writing yours.

Love,
Elizabeth

[Dem]

And a different view :

Opus Dei and John Paul II
A Profoundly Rightwing Pope
By VICENTE NAVARRO

Baltimore, Maryland

The predominant perception of John Paul II, as extensively reproduced in most of the Western media, is that he was very conservative ("traditional" is the term widely used) in religious subjects but progressive in social matters, as evidenced by his defense of the poor and his concern for human and social rights. His key ideological role in the demise of the Soviet Union is put forward as further proof of his commitment to liberty and democracy. John Paul's support for the Polish trade union Solidarnosc, his numerous speeches in support of the poor and of those left behind by capitalism or globalization, and his frequent calls for human solidarity ­ not to mention his opposition to the invasion of Iraq by U.S. forces ­ all are presented as examples of his progressiveness in the social arena.

In this perception of Pope John Paul II, some critical elements are forgotten. Let's detail them. He was groomed for the Papacy, long before he was elected Pope, by the ultra-right-wing sect Opus Dei. This secret organization was founded by Monsignor Escrivá, a Spanish priest who was formerly a private confessor to General Franco, organizing spiritual meetings for the Spanish fascist leadership. Opus Dei chose John Paul as the candidate for Pope very early in his career, when he was bishop of Krakow. His conservatism and anti-communism were very attractive to this sect.

John Paul traveled extensively at that time on trips organized and funded by Opus Dei, developing a very close working relationship with the sect. Opus Dei was the organization that developed the strategy to make him the Pope, assisted by the bishop of Munich, Joseph Ratzinger; the U.S. cardinals close to Opus Dei, Joseph Krol and Patrick Cody; and a cardinal then close to Opus Dei, Cardinal Franz König from Vienna (who later distanced himself from Opus Dei and from the Pope). The center of operations for this campaign was Villa Tevere, the Opus Dei headquarters in Rome.

Immediately after his election as Pope, John Paul designated Opus Dei as a special order directly accountable to him, not to the bishops. He surrounded himself with members of the order, the most visible being Navarro-Valls, an Opus Dei journalist who had worked for Abc, an ultra-conservative Spanish paper that had been supportive of the Franco regime. Navarro-Valls is well-known for selecting journalists to cover the Pope's international visits who would report on them favorably. He constantly vetoed critical voices, such as that of Domenico del Rio of the Italian paper La Repubblica.

The Pope later named another Opus Dei member, Angelo Sodano, as Secretary of State of the Vatican. Sodano had been the Vatican's ambassador in Chile during the Pinochet dictatorship, becoming a close friend and advisor to the dictator. He was responsible for the Pope's visit to the Pinochet dictatorship in 1987. During this visit, the Pope never called publicly for liberty or democracy in Chile. By contrast, when John Paul visited Cuba he was publicly critical of the Cuban regime. But he remained silent when he visited Pinochet. Later, when Pinochet was detained in London (awaiting extradition to Spain at the request of the Spanish Judge Baltazar Garzon), the Vatican, under Sodano's influence, asked the British Government to let Pinochet return to Chile. This same Sodano had referred to liberation theologian Leonardo Boff ­ one of the most popular priests in Latin America ­ as "a traitor to the Church, the Judas of Christ." Under Pope John Paul II, the founder of Opus Dei was made a saint just twenty seven years after his death (one of the fastest such processes ever). Meanwhile, Pope John XXIII and Bishop Romero, assassinated in El Salvadore because of his support for the poor of that country, have been waiting in line for sainthood for a much longer time.

Opus Dei and its Pope were profoundly hostile to liberation theology. John Paul condemned it at the II Latin American Conference, presided over by Opus Dei member Monsignor Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, Secretary General and later president of that Conference. John Paul also was displeased with the Jesuits who had become increasingly concerned about identification of the Church with the strong oligarchical regimes of Latin America. He changed the leadership of the order, appointing very conservative priests as its new leadership. As reported by the ex-Jesuit Luis de Sebastian in the Spanish Daily El Periodico (5 April 2005), the Pope received periodical reports from U.S. CIA Director William Casey (a Roman Catholic) on the "distressing" Jesuit movements in Latin America.

John Paul's speeches on the poor were highly generic and sanctimonious, humanistic in character, without ever touching on the cause of poverty. As the Brazilian Archbishop Helder Camara once said, "When I called for the role of the Church to be with the poor, I am called a saint; when I'm asked to do something about the causes of poverty, I am called a communist."

John Paul was profoundly political, always on the side of the powerful in Latin America and in Spain. He never touched on the political causes of poverty, he marginalized and ostracized the mass religious movements in Latin America that called for major social reforms in favor of the poor, and (with Cardinal Ratzinger, the guardian of the Church orthodoxy) he condemned such movements, ordering their leading figures ­ Gustavo Gutierrez, Leonardo Boff, Jon Sobrino, and others ­ to remain silent. Bishop Romero wrote in his personal notes that, when he denounced the brutal repression carried out by the fascist dictatorship in El Salvador, the Pope reprimanded him for not being sufficiently balanced in his criticisms of the Salvadorian dictatorship, whom John Paul referred to as the legitimate government of El Salvador.

In Spain, John Paul was political to an extreme. He was openly supportive of the post-Francoist party, the Popular Party (whose founder is Fraga Iribarne, ex-Minister of the Interior of the Franco fascist regime) and just a few months before his death he gave a speech against the Zapatero government that was actually written by the pro­Popular Party leadership of the Spanish Church. Although he opposed the invasion of Iraq and the bombing of the Iraqi population, he never condemned the Franco regime (which the Spanish Church supported), nor did he ever condemn the bombing of Spain's civilian population by the Franco Air Force, with the help of German Nazi bombers. When he was asked to condemn the bombing of Spanish cities by the Church-supported fascist forces of Spain, he declined to do so.

Rather than pushing a social agenda worldwide, Pope John Paul II became a major obstacle to such an agenda by making conservative issues (anti-abortion, anti-contraception, anti-homosexuality, and others) rather than social ones the center of political debate. The evolution of the U.S. political debate among Catholics is an example of this. In the past, Catholics in the U.S. voted Democrat more than Republican, but this is no longer the case. In the 2004 presidential election, more Catholics voted for Bush (52%) than for Kerry (47%), and they indicated that the primary reason they supported Bush was the "values" issue.

Based on all this evidence, it is remarkable that John Paul II, Opus Dei's Pope, can be considered a progressive icon.

Vicente Navarro is Professor of Public Policy at Johns Hopkins University, USA and Pompeu Fabra University, Spain. Navarro contributed an essay on Salvidor Dali's fascist ties for CounterPunch's collection on art, culture and politics: Serpents in the Garden. He can be reached at: navarro@counterpunch.org

[Diane]

Dear friends, I have looked in on this forum from time to time but have never felt the need to post a comment before because you all say everything I would say about Leonard, and more. Yet I feel I want to post on this topic.

My mother was born in 1930's Ireland to an umarried mother. She was wrenched from the arms of her mother as a newborn, forever denied her mother's love, by the catholic church, and reared in a convent by mostly sadistic nuns, who taught her that she was a product of sin. Many abuses and injustices were perpetrated on her whilst she was in this institution. All this, in the name of God.

It was with great determination she escaped from this environment at the age of 16. Most of the children were expected to graduate to the notorious Magdelene Laundries to attempt to atone for their sins. She never knew her mother, and when she did recently manage to track down and visit her, it was at my unknown grandmother's grave.

I am not suggesting that the pope was not all the things you have eloquently written of him here. I respect your views. I am not suggesting that such an outrage would necessarily occur today in the name of the church. But I would like to add my voice to those that say that each person on this earth needs to look deeply inside their own hearts to discover morality. We all have a common humanity, and in my view, would do better to locate and act from this humanity, rather than blindly follow dogma or 'ism, of whichever type.

[ForYourSmile]

Hello Bee, Please can you come a minute to The 2004 ELECTIONS ..? Thank you in advance.

Thanks Dem, It's necessary to know these facts.

Yes Diana, a sad religion,

FYS

[bee]

Dear Lizzy- I was watching the funeral last night till 4.30am PT It was amazing to feel so close to everyone, the tears you were telling about, was overwhelming sense of unity, love, forgiveness, hope and beauty. Thank you again, you said everything what was on my mind.
I've got my tooth pulled out this morning-now I have one side of my face of double size, scary look, can't write much. Was thinking, if this man was not good enough for them, if he was scorned, ridiculed even in his death-who would be good for them? Give us Barabas?
Love

[bee]

Diane-

Many abuses and injustices were perpetrated on her whilst she was in this institution. All this, in the name of God.

Dear Diane- very sorry for your mama, just remember that Christ was crucified in the name of God and suffered greatly being innocent. Evil finds it's way any place anywhere.

[lizzytysh]

Dear Diane ~

I am so terribly sorry to hear of the tragic plight of both your mother and your grandmother. One suffered as much as the other, only in different ways. How horrifying to have your own child ripped from your arms, never to be seen again, and to live an unknown fate. Very much like the Holocaust. It should never have happened to either one of them, and I can understand why you felt so compelled to speak. Thank you for sharing your own, very moving, sad, personal story.

Domination and control have certainly been historical issues in the Church. Those and the judgmentalism you speak of have existed in other churches, of other denominations, around the world. Where does one begin to alter the course of an institution? I feel the most effective means would be by being human and acting from out of that humanity, as you've suggested. Pope John Paul II apologized to numerous populations for atrocities perpetrated by the Catholic Church, some so far back in history that even his doing so was questioned. I understand that his words somehow fell short of expectation regarding the Holocaust. I don't know what was said, or what was expected. However, I make a distinction between the institution and the person, and believe that he was trying to make things right.

I cannot speak to all that Demetris has quoted in the article here. I believe that such allegations can be made regarding any leader in any realm. I've never seen a leader escape them. That's not to ignorantly suggest that none of this has any basis. I can't and won't do that. However, I won't retract anything I've said, based on this article, either. It's an imperfect world, filled with imperfect beings. I continue to believe and feel that Pope John Paul II was a good man. The Catholic Church is known for its Power. Trying to negotiate in your role from within that Power base has to be a most difficult task.

I hope that nothing you've described here, that happened with your mother and grandmother, would happen today within the Church. I'm sorry neither of you were ever able to meet your grandmother. It had to be a devastating discovery for your mother to find her only in her grave. I'm sorry.

Love,
Elizabeth

[Mirek]

Thanks Dem, It's necessary to know these facts.

FYS

Facts? This was just some unknown author writing some paper on Opus Dei... are you sure that these are real facts?
At least there is one absolute lie - information about Cardinal Koenig and his distancing from the Pope... so I believe that the rest of the "facts" might be as well just imaginary.

Mirek

[Mirek]

And a different view :

Opus Dei and John Paul II

Opus Dei and its Pope were profoundly hostile to liberation theology. John Paul condemned it at the II Latin American Conference, presided over by Opus Dei member Monsignor Alfonso Lopez Trujillo

And of course you, Dem, think that 'liberation theology' is a good thing, right?

Mirek