leonardcohenforum.com

(second post)

So just now listening just to TR American Rivers song while reading the (K's) lyrics. I like the way he equates the rivers with his dreams and his mama at the same time, while noting the native American names and 'our guilt'. You can't kill the wisdom of indigenous people, that the river is both sacred (a dream) and our source of life (mama). Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it, as Norman Maclean said.

Bequia wrote Tom Russell wrote: A river is a carrier of dreams. "The water is wide…I can’t make it over…nor do I have…the wings to fly." We are stuck inside the river dream. For a moment. "Until human voices wake us, and we drown….." (Eliot.)

Eliot also wrote,

I do not know much about gods; but I think that the river
Is a strong brown god—sullen, untamed and intractable,
Patient to some degree, at first recognised as a frontier;
Useful, untrustworthy, as a conveyor of commerce;
Then only a problem confronting the builder of bridges.
The problem once solved, the brown god is almost forgotten
By the dwellers in cities—ever, however, implacable.
Keeping his seasons and rages, destroyer, reminder
Of what men choose to forget. Unhonoured, unpropitiated
By worshippers of the machine, but waiting, watching and waiting.
His rhythm was present in the nursery bedroom,
In the rank ailanthus of the April dooryard,
In the smell of grapes on the autumn table,
And the evening circle in the winter gaslight.

'Mockingbird' racism is unfortunately very much alive and well against many of the world's indigenous people outside of the US. South Amercian tribes have to live with the ever increasing threat of their governments' complicity with oil and logging companies to ruin their lands. Once their rivers are 'clogged and defiled', they are finished. Whether or not the earth undergoes environmental catastrophe is inseparable from the fate of the remaining indigenous peoples (and their worldwide number amounts to at least half the population of the US). By the way there is a new film, Birdwatchers, that looks interesting, featuring the threatened Guarani Indians of Brazil http://www.birdwatchersfilm.com/. http://movies.sky.com/review/birdwatchers.

The river though, is the ultimate symbol of renewal and of the constant flux of everything, ol' man river he just keeps rollin, and it's most likely that even if humanity is wiped from the earth, it (the earth) will not be left sterile but simply enter a new phase and it will 'turn back wild'. If you stand back and look at the history of the earth, in the grand scheme we don't matter much.

On a personal level though they (we) are definitely 'poisoning our dreams', and I feel it every time I see plastic carrier bags floating in my local river or the scum from the local sewerage works being borne in on the sea tide or read the latest incident of illegal industrial dumping of toxins into waterways.

I've never seen an American river. The US land mass supports far longer and grander rivers than we have over here, but all the names of the earth's great rivers have a mythic ring to them. I always feel drawn to listen carefully to Bruce singing that wonderful old song I'd never have heard if not for him, Oh Shenandoah I love your daughter, away you rolling river...I'm bound away cross the wide Missouri. I was saying to Joe Way when he was over here how smallscale the UK must seem compared to what he is used to. You don't get a sense of big sky vastness on our small island, that you get in Africa, even in the mountains of Northern Spain, and no doubt, the wide open parts of the US.

I like the little plant photos, Kush. Great mythical agave. Is that what they make tequila from? I am a lover of deserts and I think I shall have to re-visit the wonderful writings of Edward Abbey.

Steven I have forgotten what I was going to say about what Sharon said, will have to re-listen to your interview. I was listening to you more than her, just fascinated by how you had her talking about her 'internal landscape'. My own preferred songs I think are those where the internal landscape plays out on an actual landscape.

I'll listen to the rest of TR later, plus the extra notes and enthusiasm from Bequia and Kush about other songs. At the moment the music sounds fairly uninteresting, but the lyrics look very good so I'll get into the album from the words, and he does have a strong voice. Also, have my first cd of Ba Cissoko (another West African griot plus band), and my second Etran Finatawa (a collaboration of two desert tribal people). Saw both groups at WOMAD last year (next womad here 23 - 25 July 2010), and they were both unbelievably good. Enough music now to keep me going until Christmas.

Hi Everyone,

Thanks to Kush for the good words about the interview. About Tom Russell, he's among performers that
I've got a gaping lack of listening experience with. No, haven't yet checked Youtube. Another performer,
along these same lines, is the late Steve Goodman. This is a quick post, as I'm in a hit-and-run mode
now. -- Last week was a mini-vacation (Mon-Wed.)and this weekend, I'm in catch up mode. The only
segment I've gotten to watch of the National Parks series, has been the initial two hour one. Will
look to rent the series at some point. Looking forward to getting back here when not feeling rushed.

Diane - that is a lot of thoughts you have brought here that I cannot do justice to at the moment in my post. Thanks for the tip on the Birdwatchers movie. Will definitely keep a lookout for it. I had a favorite place to go to and watch offbeat movies in NY but am dependent on DVDs now although time is also a factor. Now I have that and Ken Burns and Del Boy (Holiday Season specials) to watch - I might just get a membership at netflix rather than keep buying DVDs which becomes quite expensive.

I think there is a tension in the co-existence of modern society and the so-called primitive self-contained cultures. I am not sure what the answer is. We cannot so easily complain about industrial toxins in the waterways and at the same time ask for, indeed demand for, the latest and greatest technology for our entertainment and convenience. There is probably a way in between but it takes effort and education to first figure out what it is and then get to that place. Modern industrial society is barely out of its infancy and like children with a lot of energy we will probably break a lot of things given the power technology has bestowed on us. As Carl Sagan said "there is a mismatch between our wisdom and our technology".

The river though, is the ultimate symbol of renewal and of the constant flux of everything, ol' man river he just keeps rollin, and it's most likely that even if humanity is wiped from the earth, it (the earth) will not be left sterile but simply enter a new phase and it will 'turn back wild'. If you stand back and look at the history of the earth, in the grand scheme we don't matter much.

I completely agree with this, especially the latter part. Going back to the indigenous societies theme, everybody on earth was at one time or another part of a self-contained indegenous society which was assimilated (and much blood shed in the process), and without even a second thought in almost all cases. It is only in modern society that there is more awareness and even a certain level of concern for the preservation of the self-contained cultures. Is that feasible without it being a kind of a zoo-like preservation? I dont know the answer to that (we have had this discussion before). I am hardly an expert on the matter and probably should educate myself more before putting these thoughts on the internet for the world to see.
Having said that, however, for the 4 to 6 minute duration that I am hearing a Tom Russell song I completely believe and accept everything he has to say on the matter. Who am I to doubt these mysteries?

Steven - your "gaping lack of listening experience" with Tom Russell sounds like mine with George Jones. For what its worth, Borderland and this album Blood and Candle Smoke are defintely worth much more than the money you would invest in the CDs. Two other excellent albums are Love and Fear and Song of the West: The Cowboy Collection.

There are hardly any early TR videos on youtube but I found one where he sings one of his older songs Blue Wing at a farm in of all places Norway. And sounding very Johnny Cash-ish with lot of hair too. The Norwegians at the farm are dancing and generally look like having a good time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVX1awaFStA

And he drank and dreamed a vision, of when the salmon still ran free
And his father's fathers crossed that wild old Bering Sea

Ok gotta focus on work stuff now for a few days - be back with more thoughts.

p.s. BTW, the Song of the West album liner notes has a nice pic of TR with George Jones.

Something else came to mind that is tangentially or perhaps directly connected to the pollution of rivers issue - the worlds population is increasingly exponentially (thanks to medical advances as well as food production & distribution) from past times. And more and more people are getting rich and are in the consumerist middle class today than ever before. While the consumer class was mainly limited to populations of Europe and USA and Japan 20-30 years ago, already today India and China have a larger consumer middle class than the entire population of USA. This means more CDs and DVDs and blu-rays discs and ipods etc etc for these people, so industries have to churn out more of these products (and all other products typical of middle classes, I am just using music as example), so more industrial waste. Plus more of these people want to travel to various Springsteen concerts (and internet makes this quite easy) or vacation hotspots around the country or the world, so more gasoline needed to fly more planes ......you can imagine how this spirals uncontrollably. The more number of people with expendable income there are in the world, the more resources of the earth are taken up, and the more waste (all industrial products will have waste - that has to go somewhere, in the water, or earth or in the air).
OK now I really have to get some sleep

Hi Diane,

I'm not surprised that you relate to the "internal landscape" so well, as you have an artistic/visual
orientation, that comes across with some of the photos you've posted.

Hi Kush,

Heard the Nina Simone song by T.R. again, on the radio last night. And hearing it, I thought about a
possible purchase of the CD. Btw, Nina Simone (the person) appears in the very excellent memoir by Janis Ian,
"Society's Child." (The paperback of the memoir has recently been released.) George Jones released lots
and lots of records. Among the songs, are some really timeless works.

Diane - just a short note, I'll have to hear Tell No Lies again before the coming weekend, gotta find the right set of ears and give that a chance again. Maybe my new earphones will set me right. Like getting a new pair of eyeglasses.

Hi Kush. I agree with most of what you you say in your posts (the two above your just now short one). Clearly those countries that are joining ours in enjoying the fruits of industrialisation are not going to be able to enjoy the consumerist lifestyle, long-term, that we take for granted, and nor are we anymore (or at least not our following generations), because it seems the earth cannot sustain it, and something's gotta give. A mismatch between our wisom and our technology yes, Mr Sagan. I don't know what the answer is, either. It is all too easy, as you say, to pontificate and then blithely continue to be part of the problem, and I do.

Going back to the indigenous societies theme, everybody on earth was at one time or another part of a self-contained indegenous society which was assimilated (and much blood shed in the process), and without even a second thought in almost all cases. It is only in modern society that there is more awareness and even a certain level of concern for the preservation of the self-contained cultures. Is that feasible without it being a kind of a zoo-like preservation?

We have had this conversation before haven't we:-) The killing of Indians in South America began of course with European conquest 500 years ago. The fact that tribal cultures were less than secure historically (compared to more complex societies) doesn't mean that we should just leave those that remain to their fate today, now that we aspire to afford human rights to all minorities. Taking as an example of present-day persecution in S/Am something that has been in the news recently, on June 5 this year, "the Amazon's Tiananmen" took place. This is from memory so I hope I got the facts right: Peruvian police tried to disperse indigenous protesters who were and are desperate about the threat to their land from oil companies. A number of people were killed, including policemen, and there was some degree of cover-up over how many had been killed and exactly what happened. The Peruvian government are giving permission to oil companies to drill for oil on the Indians' land, and including in the territories of uncontacted tribes. Some of the resisting indigenous leaders have been so persecuted that they have sought asylum in other countries. The government argue that the forest is owned by everyone in Peru equally, and not just those particular Indians, but they are not adhering to their legal commitment to respect the rights of their tribal people, who clearly cannot live if their forests are torn down and their rivers polluted because they get their food from the land and not the supermarket. They live under constant threat of losing everything.

If we don't know where to draw the line in using up the world's resources, a clear line must surely be when a group of people are being killed and dispossesed. These people are valuable to the world as a whole, because they lead the kinds of lives that all humanity did for the great majority of our time on this earth, and because they truly know how to live sustainably on the land that they have. Forcible assimilation has always been devastating for indigenous cultures. What tribal cultures want and need is to be able to keep their land. This does not mean making their existence zoo-like at all. Animals are kept in zoos, and in a zoo animals are not even required to catch their own food. It is the industrialised world that is more like a zoo if you think about it. Indigenous people are not primitive; they are exactly as human as anyone reading this and their lifestyle is equally as valid, but many people do not believe that. The destruction of the Amazon home of South American tribes, with roads, oil drilling, logging activity and cattle ranches, of course corresponds with loss of biodiversity and acceleration of global warming. I think this point answers your question as to whether any people can reasonably expect to remain more or less isolated in this age: We do need to leave space for more or less 'cut off' tribes, in order to sustain the earth as a whole.

As to whether it's feasible for these tribes to be protected, realistically, probably not without stronger, internationally-enforced legislation. There is only one international law protecting the rights of indigenous people, ILO169, which recognises their right to own their land, to equality, and to be included in the decision-making processes that effect them. Peru have ratified the law, but they don't fully respect it. This disrespect for indigenous people despite legislation will become more difficult for governments to get away with if more and more countries sign up. The UK goverment has so far refused to sign, on the basis that we have no tribes in the UK. (We do however have UK companies that seek to mine in tribal areas of other countries, for example the British company Vedanta, mining on the land of the Dongria Kondh of India, has recently been in the news because of condemnation of their exploitation of the tribe.) The UK do support the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, but this has no legal obligation attached to it, as I understand it. Here are a list of countries that have so far signed up to ILO169: http://www.ilo.org/ilolex/cgi-lex/ratifce.pl?C169. Let there be more.

Thanks for giving me the chance to get on my soapbox:-) Better not spend too long on this subject lest I should find myself moving further south in the forum.

Nice to know you are watching the Fools n Horses specials. Have you seen the batman one yet? I should sort out a source of dvds and start to watch one a week as I once did. I'll wite it on my to do list.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYq-Ljwov_s

Great that you're giving Tell No Lies another chance. No obligation to find something nice to say about it of course;-) As I speak I am loading Tom Russell onto my ipod ready for the morning. Back about him in a few days. I'm liking the sound of this album far more now I have listened to more than just the one song, but yet to read all the lyrics and notes in this thread. Will stop writing long posts now and just listen.

Thanks for suggesting I tend to be visually oriented, Steven. It's true. Having heard you speak makes me suddenly feel as if I know you better:-) Speaking, I sound not unlike Del Boy (see above link) (a little higher in tone maybe;-).

ps excellent lyrics to Guadalupe.

"Thanks for suggesting I tend to be visually oriented, Steven. It's true. Having heard you speak makes me suddenly feel as if I know you better:-) Speaking, I sound not unlike Del Boy (see above link) (a little higher in tone maybe;-)."

Hi Diane,

Thanks for this. Haven't yet heard Del Boy, but am pretty sure I'd hear good things communicated by your
voice. You don't need me to chime in on the soapbox stuff. Were you or Kush to want me to do so,
you'd say so.

P.S. As fate would have it, heard Del Boy, while driving tonight, over a public radio station. Hearing
Del Boy reminded me of lyryngitis, that happily, I don't have currently. May you never have it or
sound like that.

P.P.S. Back to Springsteen, it's amazing that his vocal chords don't sound adversely affected by years
of rock.

Diane - I note that Survival International is a British institution and it is they who coined the term "Peru's Tiananmen" (sounds suspiciously close to "Israel's Apartheid"). I do not question their good intentions but an alternate argument (and probably the majority local sentiment in Peru and India) will be that a rich and developed G-8 nation tells a developing nation that you cannot develop your resources and join us in our way of life because we want you to preserve the "noble savage" and leave him alone. Not that either side is right or wrong but that might be a popular sentiment. BTW, of all the latin american countries Peru is almost all Amerindian and mestizo population and only a small minority white population.
Also, some irony that Britain did not exactly leave the noble savages alone on over 3 continents and for over 300 years.....just sayin'...
Nevertheless, while we may differ in the specifics of the above cases in general I agree with the overall idea. Just that issues are more complex and more voices (at the local level) other than Survival International (10,000 miles away) need to be heard and acknowledged.
Its good that a song can generate this discussion but lets sing another song now...as in the previous round we dont exactly disagree but neither do we see eye to eye on the matter.

Enjoyed Batman and Robin clip very much. No I havent actually gotten the specials yet but will get them soon.

Back to Springsteen, it's amazing that his vocal chords don't sound adversely affected by years
of rock.

Absolutely. All that screaming, dancing, sliding and jumping on pianos - he just does it night after night after night and apparently no wear and tear in voice or body.

Kush, quite so that 'the Amazon's Tianenmen' is a catch-phrase (well it rhymes and sounds good). Also, 'noble savage' is a rather dated concept (ha, but you only used it to wind me up I suspect). OK I don't know the proportion of people, race-wise, who remain tribal in Peru, but that's not the point. Yes everything is always more complex, but if the remaining peoples who live directly with nature (and are defenceless, needing 'outsiders' to intervene on their behalf), are pushed off the earth, it is a great tragedy. It feels like a fundamental disregarding of who we are. That idea may well be sentimental, but it is also logical.

Kush wrote:
Also, some irony that Britain did not exactly leave the noble savages alone on over 3 continents and for over 300 years.....just sayin'...

That's true. There is an argument for those forcibly taking others' land saying, why expect us to stop, just because you have reached a comfortable position in your own bloody history where you have the time and resources to criticise other people. Discuss, as they say in exam questions.

Btw going back to something you said earlier, it's not all gloom and doom with regard to population increase and environmental degradation, New Scientist have been running a series of articles and maybe I'll get back about that, But Americans are still going to have to stop being the worst in excessive consumption.

Steven wrote:As fate would have it, heard Del Boy, while driving tonight, over a public radio station. Hearing
Del Boy reminded me of lyryngitis, that happily, I don't have currently. May you never have it or
sound like that.

Oh dear, Steven, I assure you that if it really was Del Boy that you heard, then I do sound like that. Maybe I don't always say "I fink so" instead of "I think so", for example, but the accent is the same. Do you think I should take some elocution lessons??? Maybe it's been too long since I've been screaming and dancing on pianos.

Kush, still getting into Tom Russell, but great music and lots of wonderful lines, such as I will pray to any god who keeps his light on late at night. That springs to mind but there are many more. The song East of Woodstock West of Vietnam sounds like an instant classic, it has that ring to it. I'm loving the trumpet on the album. TR has a noble sounding voice, similar to Willie N's. A noble voice singing about savage things. That's what's good.

Hi Diane,

Let's set up a gathering where we can all scream and dance on pianos. I've a friend with a Grand piano;
I'm not allowed to touch that very expensive piano's keys. Elocution is the stuff of finishing schools; you're probably
just fine as you are. And if you are shrill, I've earplugs for the screaming.

But Americans are still going to have to stop being the worst in excessive consumption.

sounds good. We are even now. I used to do a trans-America roadtrip almost every year until a few years ago (only because of time considerations not environmental). Gotta work on that hole in the atmosphere.

A noble voice singing about savage things

Thats a nice line I may adopt that one. TR has never had a hit song and he mocks himself in Dont Look Down as a singer at mudshows and carnivals so I doubt that East of Woodstock....will be a hit. I read a recent review of a concert where all of 130 people were cheering each song wildly. I woudnt say he sings like Willie Nelson (or atleast the young Willie, the recent one just slide-sings and speak-sings) but like all great singer-songwriters he (i.e. TR) knows well how to float a song on a raft of words. Just the right touch of emotion in phrasing and intonation.

I have a lot of time to myself this coming weekend so will listen to TR and Tell No Lies and watch some Del Boy. Its funny half the time I did not understand what they would say especially the old guy (the Dad or Dad's brother i think it was)

Steven my brother used to have a baby grand piano but it had to go due to taking up far too much space. Here's a fave song featuring a baby grand, Billy Joel with Ray Charles. Another one for when you get to the library, although I expect you know it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY2lY6xO6Fo

Kush wrote:I doubt that East of Woodstock....will be a hit.

Sounds like something that could have been playing on the radio for years.

I say 'noble'-sounding voice like Willie cos it sounds sincere and resonant (not half as much as Willie's though, not that I've heard him that much, or recently). I was going to say all country singers sound the same to me, but actually they don't. But, they probably sound far more alike to me than they do to you. Haven't the foggiest why you can't understand Uncle Albert (or Grandad before him). You need to tune your ear properly that's all.

Kush wrote:knows well how to float a song on a raft of words. Just the right touch of emotion in phrasing and intonation.

Nice description. Doubtless why it sounds sincere.

As I happen to be working in Cardiff tomorrow, I impulse bought a ticket for this group of singers, for tomorrow night, just on the strength of the description on a leaflet which said, ancient chant and polyphony from Europe and the Middle East. I only looked them up on youtube when I got home and I'm not sure whether they will be any good as I can't take too much of women with high voices (may need to borrow your earplugs, Steven) but we'll see. No doubt I'll be tellin you:-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOgAJM4iCNc

It was lovely! Highly engaging. Only nine singers in total. The olde western choral part was angelic and uplifting, and the three eastern singers; two Syrian men performing ancient chant and one woman singing in Copic (old Eygptian), brought the dissonance and longing. No cd of this yet, but might get when it comes out although it's the sort of thing that works far better live than on a disc.

Daily Telegraph review:
http://www.theclerks.co.uk/The-Daily-Te ... -2009.html

I notice they are doing one more Qudduson on Saturday 31st Oct in York.