I just saw this and while realizing that every story has at least two sides to it (which Lizzy and YdF are representing well) the musicians that we spoke with and listened to in New York (Perla, Julie, Paul & Bob) had nothing but the highest praise for Leonard not only for his musical and lyric writing abilities, but also for his personal integrity. Not knowing Leonard personally, I was moved by the deep admiration that they have for him. The person they described to us was not someone who would intentionally financially injure or deprive credit from a member of his troop.
Joe
Secret co-writer of "Chelsea Hotel"?
this is all so interesting!
No one can deny that Ron Cornelius is great guitarist,
- a great musician.
And I am not alone in knowing that we are all
indebted to him for a great deal of pleasure.
Also, his business these days seems to be mostly
the business - publishing - song-writer promoting
- http://www.corneliuscompanies.com/catalog.html
(--interestingly he mentions there
"Leonard Cohen Live Songs Columbia" as one of the many albums
he's appears on that happen to be among his favorites.
It contains of course "C.H. #2". )
Among the services of his business ---
"- Royalty Control/Copyright Administration:
Policing copyrights and royalties on a world-wide basis."
-- Now, all that does indeed imply that Cornelius
knows what it takes to make a song a song.
It's quite certain he can compose one.
--16 bars, a bridge, -- and of course it's absolutely
certain that he can compose great riffs.
The songs BMI attributes to him are these:
1. BROKEN HEART 153381
2. CAN T GET OVER HOW YOU LEFT ME 175484
3. CHELSEA HOTEL NO 2 203294
4. FOREST OF BLUE 435536
5. FUNERAL ON THE BEACH 452000
6. I REALLY WANT YOU 675090
7. IN MY WILDEST DREAMS 718114
8. NOW YOU SEE ME 1092365
9. OUT OF THE WILDERNESS 1997745
10. OVER YOUR HEART 3793320
11. PEACEFUL TIMES 1160790
12. SUMMER FLOWER 1427382
13. THOUGHT FOR CHARLOTTE 1506766
14. YOU ARE HOME TO ME 1709363
The fact that I don't immediately recognize any of them,
apart from #2 (#3), doesn't prove that they aren't good.
In fact I think it's quite certain that they are all
good songs.
~~
But a 'great' song is something else.
It's a gestalt. It's more than its parts. It has a soul.
It can stand up to abuse and like Rocky still be unmistakably
recognizable.
(eg: http://mysite.verizon.net/vze25q7u/listen.html
where the "three penny opry" have a snippet of their
cover of C.H.#2 --"solo.wav")
Chelsea Hotel #0.5 may already have been an ok song.
Perhaps dull. (Beethoven always worked off dull themes,
because they're more pliable. He could manipulate
them into whatever he wanted them to be. An intrinsically
fascinating melody on the other hand is not pliable.
A great band member works at that level. A great
song writer works on a deeper level. )
But Chelsea Hotel #1.0 was a fully mature great song.
Not successful, but great. Not polished for prime time.
But a great song none the less.
(Let's agree: Chelsea Hotel #2 is a trivial variation.)
It took a great song writer to push it from 0.5 to 1.0.
(It may have taken falling off a log drunk to go from 1.0 to 2.0.)
But the pivotal question is, is it really believable
that Cornelius, on his own, could have been the one
to have moved it from 0.5 to 1.0?
The prime-mover? The essential author?
Here are some chord changes:
C C C G F C ...
(in roman, I I I V IV ... )
So who invented that? ....
------
As for the title, the album that C.H. #2 first appears
on is called, after all, : "New Skin For The Old Ceremony".
And it's often been commented that #2
is an entirely different take on the subject of #1.
Having nothing to do with the music.
It's fascinating to think that the title change
could have been purely about copyright!
But I don't know
if that's so.
No one can deny that Ron Cornelius is great guitarist,
- a great musician.
And I am not alone in knowing that we are all
indebted to him for a great deal of pleasure.
Also, his business these days seems to be mostly
the business - publishing - song-writer promoting
- http://www.corneliuscompanies.com/catalog.html
(--interestingly he mentions there
"Leonard Cohen Live Songs Columbia" as one of the many albums
he's appears on that happen to be among his favorites.
It contains of course "C.H. #2". )
Among the services of his business ---
"- Royalty Control/Copyright Administration:
Policing copyrights and royalties on a world-wide basis."
-- Now, all that does indeed imply that Cornelius
knows what it takes to make a song a song.
It's quite certain he can compose one.
--16 bars, a bridge, -- and of course it's absolutely
certain that he can compose great riffs.
The songs BMI attributes to him are these:
1. BROKEN HEART 153381
2. CAN T GET OVER HOW YOU LEFT ME 175484
3. CHELSEA HOTEL NO 2 203294
4. FOREST OF BLUE 435536
5. FUNERAL ON THE BEACH 452000
6. I REALLY WANT YOU 675090
7. IN MY WILDEST DREAMS 718114
8. NOW YOU SEE ME 1092365
9. OUT OF THE WILDERNESS 1997745
10. OVER YOUR HEART 3793320
11. PEACEFUL TIMES 1160790
12. SUMMER FLOWER 1427382
13. THOUGHT FOR CHARLOTTE 1506766
14. YOU ARE HOME TO ME 1709363
The fact that I don't immediately recognize any of them,
apart from #2 (#3), doesn't prove that they aren't good.
In fact I think it's quite certain that they are all
good songs.
~~
But a 'great' song is something else.
It's a gestalt. It's more than its parts. It has a soul.
It can stand up to abuse and like Rocky still be unmistakably
recognizable.
(eg: http://mysite.verizon.net/vze25q7u/listen.html
where the "three penny opry" have a snippet of their
cover of C.H.#2 --"solo.wav")
Chelsea Hotel #0.5 may already have been an ok song.
Perhaps dull. (Beethoven always worked off dull themes,
because they're more pliable. He could manipulate
them into whatever he wanted them to be. An intrinsically
fascinating melody on the other hand is not pliable.
A great band member works at that level. A great
song writer works on a deeper level. )
But Chelsea Hotel #1.0 was a fully mature great song.
Not successful, but great. Not polished for prime time.
But a great song none the less.
(Let's agree: Chelsea Hotel #2 is a trivial variation.)
It took a great song writer to push it from 0.5 to 1.0.
(It may have taken falling off a log drunk to go from 1.0 to 2.0.)
But the pivotal question is, is it really believable
that Cornelius, on his own, could have been the one
to have moved it from 0.5 to 1.0?
The prime-mover? The essential author?
Here are some chord changes:
C C C G F C ...
(in roman, I I I V IV ... )
So who invented that? ....
------
As for the title, the album that C.H. #2 first appears
on is called, after all, : "New Skin For The Old Ceremony".
And it's often been commented that #2
is an entirely different take on the subject of #1.
Having nothing to do with the music.
It's fascinating to think that the title change
could have been purely about copyright!
But I don't know
if that's so.
-
Young dr. Freud
- Posts: 667
- Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:41 am
Lizzy...All right if there was not a collaboration then why did Leonard feel the need to give credit to Ron for suggesting a "chord change." Why? If that's all it was...one chord change. That's crazy. And please don't tell me it's because Leonard is such a swell guy.A rewrite-collaboration beggars belief with me. A suggestion does not constitute collaboration.
Joe...I don't doubt a minute that the musicians in NY were completely truthful and sincere in their accolades to Leonard. But NO-ONE and that includes Leonard Cohen is always that perfect. In a weak moment I'm sure Leonard Cohen can be just as mean as anyone else.
Nadal sure left a lot out of his biography.
YdF
Again, YdF, your attitude and stance are ones of indictment.
The whole point is made that Leonard did give credit to Ron for suggesting a "chord change" ~ perhaps, because he did suggest one? Leonard did give him credit for that. End of scenario. End of statement. Suggesting a "chord change" and co-writing a song are worlds apart. Particularly, when the initial, solid version of the song is already in full existence.
Not being "perfect" also has nothing to do with being accused of ripping of the co-writer of a song. Those two are also worlds apart.
I appreciate the way Greg has brought all those elements together.
There are a number of paintings that are slightly altered and then numbered as #2, #3, etc. If someone were to suggest that the artist try it in sky-coloured pastels, the artist would not be beholden to include the notation of the additional person's name as collaborator.
It seems to me that in the world of music, there is a rather common level of simple sharing, of knowledge and suggestions, that does not necessarily always rise to the level of collaboration/co-writing; nor is official acknowledgement of input expected. Otherwise, we would be faced with multiple names attached to songs, when friends get together, and someone is still working on one of their own songs.
I believe Leonard and trust his integrity.
I also need to go now, as I'm late for an appointment.
~ Elizabeth
The whole point is made that Leonard did give credit to Ron for suggesting a "chord change" ~ perhaps, because he did suggest one? Leonard did give him credit for that. End of scenario. End of statement. Suggesting a "chord change" and co-writing a song are worlds apart. Particularly, when the initial, solid version of the song is already in full existence.
Not being "perfect" also has nothing to do with being accused of ripping of the co-writer of a song. Those two are also worlds apart.
I appreciate the way Greg has brought all those elements together.
There are a number of paintings that are slightly altered and then numbered as #2, #3, etc. If someone were to suggest that the artist try it in sky-coloured pastels, the artist would not be beholden to include the notation of the additional person's name as collaborator.
It seems to me that in the world of music, there is a rather common level of simple sharing, of knowledge and suggestions, that does not necessarily always rise to the level of collaboration/co-writing; nor is official acknowledgement of input expected. Otherwise, we would be faced with multiple names attached to songs, when friends get together, and someone is still working on one of their own songs.
I believe Leonard and trust his integrity.
I also need to go now, as I'm late for an appointment.
~ Elizabeth
-
Young dr. Freud
- Posts: 667
- Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:41 am
Again, Lizzy your stance is one of credulous naivete. (I have a copy of Songs from Rebecca I'd like to sell you.)
No...but if someone took the artist' hand and guided the brush strokes and daubed on the paint...then the "artist" would be beholden to sign the painting with both names.
YdF
If someone were to suggest that the artist try it in sky-coloured pastels, the artist would not be beholden to include the notation of the additional person's name as collaborator.
No...but if someone took the artist' hand and guided the brush strokes and daubed on the paint...then the "artist" would be beholden to sign the painting with both names.
YdF
Post deleted
Last edited by John K. on Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
I love to speak with John
He's a pundit and a fraud
He's a lazy banker living in a suit
http://www.johnkloberdanz.com
He's a pundit and a fraud
He's a lazy banker living in a suit
http://www.johnkloberdanz.com
-
Young dr. Freud
- Posts: 667
- Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:41 am
Wow Kjelling, you must really like my contribution to Neil's song. Unfortunately he never heard it as we've never met, he published the song in 1973 when I was 12 years old.Kjelling wrote:Were you around when Neil Young wrote the song? Did you help him out with it? Is your name registered as co-writer with BMI? Did he or his attorney pay you to let it go away?
If so, you may have a case.
YdF, what is it inside of you that so badly needs to be right all the time? Tell us man, tell us!
I love to speak with John
He's a pundit and a fraud
He's a lazy banker living in a suit
http://www.johnkloberdanz.com
He's a pundit and a fraud
He's a lazy banker living in a suit
http://www.johnkloberdanz.com
-
Young dr. Freud
- Posts: 667
- Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:41 am
I don't know whether R Cornelius is rightfully credited or not and I s'pose we'll never know the real story or who is more at fault.
But there have been other instances (Who By Fire, Alexandra Leaving come to mind immediately) where the full credit is not disclosed on the album...yeah you can talk endlessly about internet sites and concerts etc etc where he reveals the true source but the real record is in the album that is there for posterity. So there may be something to it I have no idea...
Personally this probably makes LC a far more appealing and well-rounded individual to me. The super saintly saccharine sweetly soporific St. Leonard myth perpetrated on this website by Leonard Cohen "appreciators" is frankly boring as hell.
Bob Dylan is a far more interesting personality to me simply because his flaws are so obvious.
There's no man so good he passes each test
And none so wicked he cannot come home.
- John Hiatt
But there have been other instances (Who By Fire, Alexandra Leaving come to mind immediately) where the full credit is not disclosed on the album...yeah you can talk endlessly about internet sites and concerts etc etc where he reveals the true source but the real record is in the album that is there for posterity. So there may be something to it I have no idea...
Personally this probably makes LC a far more appealing and well-rounded individual to me. The super saintly saccharine sweetly soporific St. Leonard myth perpetrated on this website by Leonard Cohen "appreciators" is frankly boring as hell.
Bob Dylan is a far more interesting personality to me simply because his flaws are so obvious.
There's no man so good he passes each test
And none so wicked he cannot come home.
- John Hiatt
-
Tchocolatl
- Posts: 3805
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm
Great quote, Kush.
I don't think that anybody believes he is (really) a saint. More an Iconic Figure
You know Mother Teresa had a really hard temper (not an easy woman) and she was accused of indulging herself in an abject surge of luxure not à la hauteur of the holly woman that she was, this because when she was visiting the Pope he was treating her with her favourite cookies There is no small sin in the eye of G-d
But. OK. Yes. Some people do need to believe in Santa Clauss for ever, so shhhhhhh let them grow up at their pace, what is wrong with that? As long as they don't harm their little comrades
The persona of Cohen is not Cohen. But the persona has a lot to do with sainthood, with all those religious back ground and on the other hand all that concern for magic and sex he has that not fit a saint, but more a wise man that knows that bad and good are not what it seems to poor mortals amoung us (a dot with an attitude)
As he never really made his private life public, and as it is not in my culture to sneak into celebrities' life (we all like it more or less, but at some point, I would hate to be a "mamarazzi") when it is not reliated to the work, well...
This said, and without wanting to make him whiter than he is (even more because I don't have a clue about that) he was not responsible for the whole production of an album, which means for the credit(s) on it also.
I don't think that anybody believes he is (really) a saint. More an Iconic Figure
You know Mother Teresa had a really hard temper (not an easy woman) and she was accused of indulging herself in an abject surge of luxure not à la hauteur of the holly woman that she was, this because when she was visiting the Pope he was treating her with her favourite cookies
There is no small sin in the eye of G-d But. OK. Yes. Some people do need to believe in Santa Clauss for ever, so shhhhhhh let them grow up at their pace, what is wrong with that? As long as they don't harm their little comrades
The persona of Cohen is not Cohen. But the persona has a lot to do with sainthood, with all those religious back ground and on the other hand all that concern for magic and sex he has that not fit a saint, but more a wise man that knows that bad and good are not what it seems to poor mortals amoung us
(a dot with an attitude)As he never really made his private life public, and as it is not in my culture to sneak into celebrities' life (we all like it more or less, but at some point, I would hate to be a "mamarazzi") when it is not reliated to the work, well...
This said, and without wanting to make him whiter than he is (even more because I don't have a clue about that) he was not responsible for the whole production of an album, which means for the credit(s) on it also.
-
ForYourSmile
- Posts: 491
- Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:38 pm
- Location: So on battlefields from here to Barcelona
- Contact:
~ greeg wrote:this is all so interesting!
Yes!!I also have felt this emotion that Lizzy speaks to us when I have seen these big letters written by Cohen. Humm, I do not know if I like to be this kind of fans who have throbs when they feel nearby the presence of his idol. I would prefer a more intellectual relation
There are different levels in the creation of a song. In this case we know that LC writes the lyrics and Ron Cornelius collaborates in the music. What is the percentage? Here there are discrepancies.
When a singer presents a song to his group it is frequent that this one continues evolving with contributions of the musicians. In the movie Bird on the Wire (thanks again Maarten), we see Bob Johnston singing Bird On the Wire, improvising with the band, also we see them in the bus. In other movies there is an environment in which Cohen seems to wait for new ideas of his band. Following the concerts in a tour we see as the songs evolve. But this is not sufficient to say that the song is of the group.
Dylan was accused of stealing songs. "I sang this before!" Someone troublesome says when to see signed by Bob Dylan a work of art that him believes that it seems to that idea that it passed without any success.
Let's compare the complete work of each one to value the real capacities of creation.
I sorry for the good one of Cornelius but it is too much late to come with this resentment.
---
Also I remained surprised on not having found Cohen in Joplin's biographies. Well, we know that in that time Janis was living with much speed and it seems to be possible that not always the biographer could follow her. I must to say that because of it, this nice song should never have been written.
Tom ~ In Nico's biography of Richard Witts (Nico: The Life and Lies of an Icon) appears Cohen several times. It seems that he was not lucky because he came late. I like Nico, she was dull for Leonard, but not for the music.
Visit my personal site: Web of one Leonard Cohen's fan Updated January 2025.
-
Tchocolatl
- Posts: 3805
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm
I should keep track of articles I read. I read somewhere that Cohen regrets to have done this song about Janis Joplin. I don't know if someone here can find this paper somewhere.
I don't think that Janis recalled every "quickies" she had in those times where they were stone 48 hours on 24 and they had sex like we have a talk. First. Second. I can see this. Chapter XIII - I made a head among many others. Everybody like to write those kinds of things in there bio, particularly if they are a pop star or something. I she would have been a famous prostitute writing her memoires, it would have been a highlight in the book. OK. But otherwise, I really don't see... Third : you know guys have a tendency to imagine a lot of sexual fantasies more than they have. But. Into this furnace, I don't ask you now to venture. Well I don't want to venture there myself would be more honest to say.
I don't think that Janis recalled every "quickies" she had in those times where they were stone 48 hours on 24 and they had sex like we have a talk. First. Second. I can see this. Chapter XIII - I made a head among many others. Everybody like to write those kinds of things in there bio, particularly if they are a pop star or something. I she would have been a famous prostitute writing her memoires, it would have been a highlight in the book. OK. But otherwise, I really don't see... Third : you know guys have a tendency to imagine a lot of sexual fantasies more than they have. But. Into this furnace, I don't ask you now to venture. Well I don't want to venture there myself would be more honest to say.