Sexy Cohen?

[tomsakic]

Stina 2001 interview (in Paris) is probably the most profound Leonard's interview (I mean, his part ). I remember how, while we watched it for the first time, shocking (and, well, stupid) first Stina's question was.

Stina Lundberg: Why do you think women have been so kind to you? Why do you think they want to show themselves naked?
Leonard Cohen: Well, I'm not the only guy who has this experience. This is what goes on between men and women. I don't want to break this news to you, Stina.
(Laughter)

Well, I think he played that very well.

I believe you know that you can read the transcript at Marie's site? (I failed as a monk, thank God...)

Linda, I think he said "I was lucky because I din't work to be payed, but was payed for my work."

[Tchocolatl]

Thanks Tom, you always have the good word(s) as usual, I knew about Stina interview (did not see it though) I have read some passages, or maybe the whole thing - I do not really care because I classified it as "monkey business".

Yes his answer is deliciously funny!

[linda_lakeside]

Thanks, Tom. I knew they were words to that effect. And so they were!

Linda.

[linda_lakeside]

Oh, sorry, Tom (for the back to back posts), re the Stina inteview, as a result of your little trading/sharing corner, I've acquired the disc for my own little collection of books, CDs, DVDs and whatever else is coming down the pike.

The problem is that I've not had the time to see/hear everything as yet. But I will get to everything when I can.

Linda.

[lightning]

"Well I'm not the only guy who has this experience" in the Stina interview is a dodge. It does not directly answer the question, it seeks safety in numbers, it throws the questioner off without a solid answer. "I'm just like other guys" is false modesty, as he isn't. I would rather hear something soul searching honest but maybe he can't face the answer. We can. There is a hilariously funny Amazon review of Dear Heather by a male who says Cohen reminds him of a stalker of junior high school girls, gives him the creeps, and makes him want to make sure the doors are locked. On the other hand, his wife likes Dear Heather, so maybe he talks to women. Indeed!!

[lizzytysh]

If it's to be considered "a dodge," I see it as being a dodge for perfectly good reason. To begin with, it was a questionable, at best, query for an interview. Some might even call it pointless and stupid. A "soul searching" reason for why some women may want to declothe themselves for him? It's not that complicated. Some women do. Some don't. Some whom he would like to do that, aren't inclined. Some whom he'd prefer didn't, are inclined. He's famous. He's notorious. He's 'known' for his 'role' in the realm of sexuality. What might be the 'soul searching' response ~ in the moment of an interview ~ as to why some women are still wanting/willing to go to bed with him?

I could go with, "Fortunately, I'm still a man, and all the same 'rules' still apply."

[lightning]

I think it was very good and brave question for Stina as it was what was on peoples' minds but they didn't dare ask. It was unexpected for television, especially in the United States, known for its sexual hypocricy, where matters like that are not discussed. There are even huge fines for broadcasters who go too far, in the opinion of the FCC. (Federal Communications Commission, Big Brother of the Media.) Americans who see this tape and are of liberal bent enjoy it very much. Cohen is probably used to being propositioned by women, as his songs do a lot to provoke and invite it. "Because of" from Dear Heather shows him still dealing with these propostions though too old and tired to cooperate.

[lizzytysh]

I know what you mean about the hypocrisy of our standards. However, just to be talking about sex is gratuitous. How is he supposed to know why they want to take off their clothes for him? What was she going for? An expression of gratitude that some do still want to do that? He's certainly grateful, and has made that clear in his songs. A more 'soul-searching' question might relate to his perspective on his desires; with the question she asked, for the sake of being 'brave,' he was expected to soul search before coming up with his best guesses ? Or, was he supposed to 'kiss and tell' on what some women had said regarding their desire, for being so, once they were nude ? Or, was he expected to open up the question to her, and ask, "Well, why don't you tell me?"

" . . . but maybe he can't face the answer. We can. There is a hilariously funny Amazon review of Dear Heather by a male who says Cohen reminds him of a stalker of junior high school girls, gives him the creeps, and makes him want to make sure the doors are locked."

So, what is that answer? That Amazon reviewer sounds like he'd rather discount, invalidate, or reframe [in a highly deleterious way] the legitimate sexual attention that Leonard receives than to accept that another male might get the attention that he no longer receives. Stalkers don't have women willingly declothing themselves for them. No reports have been made of junior high school girls derobing. That is shameless hyperbole, for the sake of a joke at Leonard's expense. "Gives him the creeps"? Why is he so hung up on Leonard's writing a song related to a delicious memory of his past? It seems to me that the Amazon reviewer needs to subscribe to Penthouse, and keep his concerns limited to his own, junior high interests. Or, is Leonard suffering the results of this guy's jealousy over the directions his own wife's desires are going?

Stina needed to give it a rest. Amazon man needs to give it a rest. I'd say that you need to give it a rest, except you always stir up interest food for thought or fodder.

Love,
Elizabeth

[Ghoti]

I always seem to be quite a bit behind in this discussion (Damned Time Delay), however i will continue to bring up subjects you have all long since forgotten.
My dear Linda, I assure you my reply was written in the same lame but light-hearted tone as your previous maessage and I am nothing but happy to be witness to your scintillating sense of humour. I can also assure you that I am not what you call a prude. I'm of the opinion, and please correct me if it is misplaced, that the majority of Leonard's listeners and readers are of a reasonably liberal nature.
I was honestly quite surprised to find that so many female posters thought of Leonard like that, probably because of Chelsea Hotel I have never made that association. I have the weakness of dividing the sexuality of the song, or poem, and that of the writer.

[Tchocolatl]

The problem with sex is that you are saying s-e-x and oups!!!! most of people are loosing grip, and then slip into the Masterpiece.

You have lost them. No logical discussion can be possible anymore.

In the US they have (not everybody, I know, I know) a very strange sense of decency - violence could be spraid all over the place, but not erotism. Oh! no. A touch of erotism and all the nation get into epilepsia crisis. And when it is shown anyway, somebody must be punished and/or be killed and/or dye.

(Moreover, for the Americans, Paris is the city where they can behave differently - like the British citizens before them. More freedom in regards of the "morality".)

Now I suppose that under this way of thinking, a man who sings a song like "I'm Your Man" and is accepting to meet a stranger in Paris deserves to be traited like a slot.

Like if there is not difference between art and real life.

In fact, I never heard of his scandalous sex life, and if he had one, he never spread the newspapers with it. It always been as private as possible as far as I know. The point is : it was never an affair to share with journalists.

Why in the world this would have changed?

He did not have to answer non-respectful questions like that.

For the rest, he always been a controversial artist, and again, why this would have changed?

The same critics are done to DH than for the rest of his work and people are reacting like if they are not used to hear these comments about him.

Now, because of this discussion, I appreciate more the song "Because of". (A kind of "run after me and try to ask me questions like this about this again" - the red scarlet in the face of the bull - I know, it is certainly just a twist of my mind! (who cares, it's funny) )

More seriously : do you think that he is mocking his "personna" in "Because of" or if he is serious?

??

(as for the sexy, I do not see the necessity for the "?". He is)

[lizzytysh]

Hi Tchocolatl ~

Yes, Leonard is sexy.

Yes, I believe that Leonard makes 'light of' himself in "Because Of." I've always felt that. At the same time, I haven't and don't feel that he makes light of the women who have intimately given themselves to him ~ and he makes the point that intimacy comes in many forms. I feel this song is a thank you to the women who have been in his truly personal life, to whatever degree.

Like you, I feel his intimate world is his own business. If he chooses to share it in an interview, he's certainly well aware of how to get from Point A to Point B, to do so. Managing an interview is not a weak area for him.

~ Elizabeth

[tomsakic]

I can't see his songs / poems as the way for seducing the women. That's inflected on his work from the outside, although I am not sure he was such notorious seducer as everybody wrote & thinks of him; that part of his public persona came with his songs & books like The Spice-Box of Earth & art covers & titles like Death of a Ladies' Man. I am listening to those songs, and I don't hear it; I hear some kind of deeper appreciation. Not only for women, but for the world, divine, whatever.
On the orher side, there are quite few songs which I dislike for falling into that misconception of a seducer. Chelsea Hotel, Why Don't You Try.

Also, this "gives me creeps" is pretty stupid and totally misunderstanded, and this "I'm just like other guys"... Well, he is. Guys are totally only on & about women. And I am quite not like Leonard in experience with women, but yes, it's only important thing going in the world, I agree with that notion of his in many interviews. But there is no war, I'd say also: maybe that idea was little wrong. There is a war Id' say in terms of Everybody Knows, but we must not level man-woman relations in terms of war; it's more accurately described as broken hallelujah (not some kind of victory march). But this is not war.

Interesting notion on Stina in context of US TV - my experience is that only sex is on TV.

[tom.d.stiller]

Tom -

"war", the way the word is used by Leonard in "There is a war", hasn't got the slightest similarity with what we discussed in our threads about Iraq. What we called war there appears mostly as "slaughter" or "murder" in Leonard's words.

The kind of war he's talking about is rather what Heraclitus meant when he said that "war is the father all things". It is the creative opposition, the Ying-Yang-dichotomy, whatever your preferred way of saying it is.

And I never considered "Chelsea Hotel" as a seduction song...

Cheers
tom

[tomsakic]

I agree with that, and I understand that on one side (as in Everybody KNows, that catalogue of everything wrong in this world). On the other side, can we reduce all to yin-yang oppositions... I'd go rather with Zen: how to go above dichotomies. I think Leonard's on that level now also I wonder still, but I'm young still, also...

Chelsea Hotel, I simply don't like that song. Maybe "the seduction song" was wrong descritpion - I followed lightning's naming - but let's say then, the description of feelings & man / woman matters, "the war", isn't accurate in Leonard's own terms, it's doesn't reach the deepest, more general level inside me. As other songs do.

[tom.d.stiller]

Tom, we can't reduce, and we shouldn't reduce. The interesting thing about these things is that they do not reduce, but rather describe a movement, a dialectics, almost a genealogy:
A man, a woman, a child - the next generation. On another level, everything starts anew.
And just as the Bible uses stories about normal men and women to hint at things far beyond them, so does Leonard sometimes. The more obvious a song seems to be "seductive" the surer I am that it is not about seduction - no matter what the man says in a random interview about the Love Story behind it...



tom