The word and the voice of God

[Casey Butler]

Casey, we get into those discussions on the Book of Mercy threads. Click this link >>> (viewforum.php?f=10) Come and throw in your 2 bob's worth.
Matj

Thanks Mat, I'll do that.

Casey

[Casey Butler]

Try for a minute to view all of mankind down through history as one, a living, growing organism.

Mankind suffers from Attention Deficit Disorder, but for good reason: Along with self-awareness comes awareness of our surroundings and each other. In general we are in awe of life itself, we are born optimists with short memories of pain and suffering. We are naturally distracted from what's good for everybody as we fulfill our own "destinies" and seek all the good stuff for ourselves.

Normally, only a few people at any given time are conditioned by their circumstances to seek understanding of the larger picture. Like why is there suffering, why are we aware of suffering to begin with, when such awareness is a threat to our own well-being, causing stress and depression, greed and jealousy.

How do the few, those who gain some understanding of the larger picture of what will really benefit mankind, impact the many who are suffering from Attention Deficit Disorder, who are completely distracted by pursuing the wonders of life in the moment?

They did it through religion, from Moses through Isaiah through Jesus on down. Through religion, those few who seek what's really going on have utilized mankind's propensity for seeking the momentary glitter of this life in order to spread the true understanding of the big picture.

Truth is at the core of every religion, but it is surrounded by ego and elitism and self-righteousness that contradicts the truth completely.

Paul put it all as follows: "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

It's all about our growth as a species. You won't find Jesus condemning a single prophet or leader before Him - from Moses to Balaam to Solomon, because without the knowledge they gained, and the record of their efforts to lead the Children of Israel to the true God through inspiration alone, Jesus could not have understood God either.

Again, that verse: "Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts."

In a metaphorical sense, Jesus, the man and the Prophet, is the sum of all human knowledge of God that preceeded Him. The "Son of Man", the "Son of God", the "Word" made flesh.

The truth is, religion made Jesus God in order to claim ignorance of His teachings. His words became "mysteries", though they are not.

But without religion, the words would not be available to us now that we are being cured of our Attention Deficit Disorder.

Through the hell on earth being developed by the divisions between Judaism, Islam, and Christianity (and all the thousands of sects among these three), God now has the undivided attention of those outside of religion.

Ie., He has, or will soon have, the attention of those who require proof.

We're all in this together, from the least of us to the greatest of us, who we call "evil" and who we call "good", from Adolph Hitler to Mohandas Gandhi, all have contributed to the enlightenment of mankind.

They needed us, we needed them...

And this is Closing Time... There is no way out of war forever. The religious were in it for their beauty too!

It's been all about the growth of reason. God is waiting.

[john.m.lake]

Yahweh & Allah... the two that speak as spoiled rotten angry children - I challenge them to a game of reason.

Yahweh, The OT states that if you work the Sabbath... your male or female 'slave' should not do any work ?? You did not think slavery to be wrong?

Yahweh, The OT states that working the Sabbath or being disrespectful to ones parents are crimes that require a punishment of 'Death'... If you would have told me that this is the word of God and I must obey - I would have told you to F Off!

Yahweh and Allah, The OT and the Koran state that Adulterer's should be stoned to 'Death'... I shake my head in disbelief.

Allah, the Koran states " 'Kill' 'Unbelievers' wherever you find them"... Even if this was said only at a time of war.. and 'God' did need to say such a thing... should God not have said 'enemy' instead of 'Unbelievers'... or does Allah believe that all 'Unbelievers are in fact the 'Enemy' ?

Allah, the Koran states "Do not question 'one word' of Allah or his prophets or you will face a painful doom". No religion.. no system of thought is infallible and none should be followed blindly. If Allah's followers refuse to question even one word for fear of a painful doom - then - I will be one of the ones to question - I fear not the horrific punishments (My skin will be burned off.. only to grow back again so the pain can start anew - so it is written) for daring to ask questions.

If God would have said "End all slavery now" and "Do not stone people to death" then that would have been Gods word and countless suffering would need not have occurred.

God's word should 'transcend' human history and 'human laws'. It appears that these Gods were only able to speak to the people of a certain time period - I say 'RUN' as fast as you can... from any God that teaches violence 'at all' - they do not have the best interests of their children in mind.

Now.. I understand that the 'Truth' is a combination of 'Everything' and I mean these Gods or their followers no ill will. The door is always open.... take a peak inside. Reach up....and take the hand of God.... you will be lifted to the heavens. May the light of the Father shine upon you.. and keep you safe for the remainder of your days.

[jimbo]

And so say all of Us

[Casey Butler]

Hi John,

Neither God nor Allah said those things (God and Allah are one and the same, Allah means God), rather God's prophets said them, inspired by God. And they wrote them down. Why do you think they said such things? We can reason it out if we choose to be honest about how we've ended up, or we can keep ourselves ignorant and pretend more righteousness than they...

Every year we kill 30,000 people and maim countless others in horrendous automobile accidents - for no reason whatsoever except to make money. And we do it without shedding a tear - unless we're directly affected, but then we blame God and hit the dealership for another bet.

The AMA says 100,000 to 200,000 people are killed in hospitals every year "by accident", infections, wrong medications, etc... This is not a figure that includes people they couldn't save, just the mistakes.

We don't shed a tear though we know health care workers are working for money, not love. We just ignore it and shake our heads as unavoidable. When its somebody close to us we blame God and pay the hospital bill anyway.

It's an endless list of bloody results of our own ways that the prophets attempted to slow, using our own ways.

We live in Ezekiel's Temple, we make our daily sacrifices to our god money and self-righteousness.

I'll leave out the genocide called "war" we are silently accomodating today so we can steal oil to keep the slaughterhouse going.

I'll leave out the 35,000,000 or so potential people we've aborted because they were inconvenient enough to kill but not inconvenient enough to abstain from our own pleasure to create them to begin with.

I'll leave out the prisons, the homeless, the poor, the single mothers, the fatherless, the orphans, the incapable, the abandoned of all of us...

One Man spoke to us as God would speak to us, one Man lived among us as God has always taught us to live, and we killed him because he threatened the status quo of the slaughterhouse, he threatened our pride and our possessions and our greed and our self-righteous judgments against the evil of others while ignoring the evil we generate simply by living our preferred lifestyle.

We lie about who He was, and what He believed and taught. Or we call Him God... or we deny His existence at all... all so we can continue the murder and the oppression against the poor and weak in order to add more and more to ourselves, our "families". We continue to pretend His words are mysteries and impossible to understand much less follow, and we persecute and kill those who, like He did, try to enlighten us...

And you criticize the prophets who tried to stop us doing all this using the best information they had available? Interesting. They did the best they knew how, didn't they?

Today we know better than to stone people, yet we're doing far worse with hardened hearts that feel detached from the murder and mayhem we see, as a whole we don't even care anymore as long as we have what WE want.

We want our way until our way drags us down to the deepest depths of this "hell" of our own creation.

Jesus says He lived the truth about God, Muhammad says Jesus lived the truth about God, all of the prophets prophecied that Jesus would live the truth about God.

What part of God don't we understand after all this time and effort and sacrifice by all of mankind?

Tell me... how would YOU have raised a full planet of wonderful and incredibly diverse and unique, beautiful and self-aware human beings while not actually doing anything "evil" yourself?

Is it not Good to create beauty?

Jesus put our history of reasoning out who we are as follows:

"A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing."

What do you think, was He lying?

On a more basic level, isn't it true that whether we're told to stone the adultress or spare the adultress...

We've ended up killing the adultress out of hand before she's even born, before she even gets a chance to share the air we breathe... because we want more and more and more for us and can't be bothered with a mere human being like ourselves if it means being inconvenienced?

Death is our answer to everything.

It's all real because today it's all so recognizably upside down.

I'm in love with the God Jesus and Muhammad, and Leonard, sing about... He doesn't even acknowledge death.

That's not a human concept at all.

The signs are there for all to see, for each individual to reason through for him or herself.

For myself, I need Him, I need Him, I need Him, I need Him, I need Him now.

Casey

[Casey Butler]

And so say all of Us

So, Us, just out of curiousity, what would you have done to Moses for creating the stoning system? What would you have done to Muhammad for insisting Islam defend itself against paganism?

First, both of these men said: "Love God with all of your heart, all of your spirit, all of your mind, and all of your strength, and your neighbor as yourself".

But "Us" refused. We wanted more for "Us".

"How judge you?"

Casey

[john.m.lake]

Casey: Hi John,

Neither God nor Allah said those things (God and Allah are one and the same, Allah means God), rather God's prophets said them, inspired by God. And they wrote them down. Why do you think they said such things? We can reason it out if we choose to be honest about how we've ended up, or we can keep ourselves ignorant and pretend more righteousness than they...

Mornin Casey... This is a correction from one of my sentences in my last post. In my haste I left out several words.

"Yahweh, The OT states that you are not to work the Sabbath... and your male or female 'slave' should not do any work ?? You did not think slavery to be wrong?"

I do not believe Yahweh or Allah to be the one true God – only ‘part’ of God. In fact, Yahweh or Allah are only the size of specks of dust to the God I speak about. These were foolish Gods that taught violence… again – I say’ run’ from any God that teaches violence at all! Did not these prophets speak for God? Are their words not considered the word of God in the Bible and the Koran?

And you criticize the prophets who tried to stop us doing all this using the best information they had available? Interesting. They did the best they knew how, didn't they?

Yes, I criticize them, Gods word should transcend human history and human laws. If these prophets were speaking for God - then - these words of God do not transend human history or human laws.

I'm in love with the God Jesus and Muhammad, and Leonard, sing about... He doesn't even acknowledge death

I do not hold the phrophet Muhammed to the same high esteem as you do. Muhammed was a warrior prophet that led invasions and taught that the wives of those men slain should be taken as war booty..and raped. He was an advocate for the beaheading of infidels and started sexual relations with his 9 year old child wife. Muslims believe Muhammed to be the ‘perfect’ man – and that Islam is ‘perfect’ - they have been deceived. In fact – Jesus and Muhammed should not even be mentioned in the same sentence.

Tell me... how would YOU have raised a full planet of wonderful and incredibly diverse and unique, beautiful and self-aware human beings while not actually doing anything "evil" yourself?

I would have said that no religion, no system of thought is infallible – and none should be followed blindly. Question all you hear. End Slavery now! DO NOT STONE people for nonsensical reasons… Adultery, working the Sabbath, being disrespectful to ones parents! And I would have said the most simple answer that God could speak to the world.. PLEASE, PLEASE… try to be kind to everyone you met, even if they are not kind to you, a very, very difficult thing to do….. But it must be undertaken.

[Casey Butler]

God should have said: "PLEASE, PLEASE… try to be kind to everyone you met, even if they are not kind to you, a very, very difficult thing to do….. But it must be undertaken."

That's exactly what He said, right, through Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and everybody before and since? "Love thy neighbour as thyself". I must be missing your point.

You keep mentioning the sabbath, well, it's actually a very good example of what I'm talking about...

Slaves and servants got a day off, the commandment was meant for the rich, and was given to scare the hell out of them because they usually don't care about the welfare of the people who work for them.

You and I agree that the God Who Is Everything, who inspired Moses, did not command slavery, or animal sacrifice, or servitude, or stoning, or all the other stuff we do to establish so-called "justice" and "atonement" within our civilizations.

But I think you and I can also agree that He did indeed command rich folks to give their households a day off on Saturday for fear of evaporation.

Thank God He did, eh? Thank God for Fridays!!

And they mostly listened to that particular commandment - they still do - though they were deaf about "Love thy neighbour as thyself" - and they still are.

I do not hold the phrophet Muhammed to the same high esteem as you do. Muhammed was a warrior prophet that led invasions and taught that the wives of those men slain should be taken as war booty..and raped. He was an advocate for the beaheading of infidels and started sexual relations with his 9 year old child wife. Muslims believe Muhammed to be the ‘perfect’ man – and that Islam is ‘perfect’ - they have been deceived. In fact – Jesus and Muhammed should not even be mentioned in the same sentence.

You have been listening to propaganda... Propaganda intended to engender and justify the most violent violence mankind has ever inflicted on itself.

Jesus and Muhammad are One. I am a witness to God's Love as expressed in the Qur'an.

Muhammad is the Leonard Cohen of his time, playing David's Secret Chord perfectly.

Again, the Voice of the God of Love shines through the statutes and punishments issued through the Qur'an to bring peace to Arabia.

I'll go further: Muhammad is the Good Samaritan spoken of by Jesus in His parable.

Muhammad found Arabia abandoned by Christianity at a time when Christianity was the most oppressive, tyrannical force the world had seen to that point, abandoned by Judaism which had become too elitist to seek converts.

The Priest and the Levite passed the wounded man by, but Muhammad stopped, poured oil and wine into his wounds, and left him in the care of the Innkeeper of the world. Who would that be...

The parable of the Good Samaritan was prompted by a question following Jesus' admonition to "love thy neighbour as thyself"...

The man had asked "Who is my neighbour?"

"A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."

Democracy is coming, John... True Democracy as defined by Mohandas Ghandi.

I don't know how to deal with the propaganda going around today.

It's all going to be okay, though, take it from an Unjust Steward, rich in unrighteousness...

The Lotus Sutra tells all about it, then read the Qur'an. Moses, Muhammad, and Buddah.. the Lion, the Bear, and the Leopard... And Jesus, the Beast and His Horn.

"Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them: I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them. O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help. [KJV-Bible - Hosea 13:7-9]

It's comin' down!

[john.m.lake]

Casey: That's exactly what He said, right, through Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and everybody before and since? "Love thy neighbour as thyself". I must be missing your point.

My point is this – There has been violence in Christianity ‘in spite of ‘ the words and actions of Jesus Christ… the has been violence in Islam ‘because of’ the words and actions of prophet Muhammad… it has been this way since their inceptions. The ‘good’ that is in the Koran does not make up for the ‘bad’ that is also there.

You keep mentioning the sabbath, well, it's actually a very good example of what I'm talking about...

Slaves and servants got a day off, the commandment was meant for the rich, and was given to scare the hell out of them because they usually don't care about the welfare of the people who work for them.

You and I agree that the God Who Is Everything, who inspired Moses, did not command slavery, or animal sacrifice, or servitude, or stoning, or all the other stuff we do to establish so-called "justice" and "atonement" within our civilizations.

But I think you and I can also agree that He did indeed command rich folks to give their households a day off on Saturday for fear of evaporation.

Thank God He did, eh? Thank God for Fridays!!

These Prophets spoke for God – and there is no denying that truth and wisdom can be found in these holy books – but – not true enlightenment. I bring up the Sabbath because on this holy of holiest days God (this God) did not feel a need to set slaves free. This God did not tell Moses it is wrong to brutally kill your fellow brothers for simply working the Sabbath or being disrespectful to one’s parents.

You have been listening to propaganda... Propaganda intended to engender and justify the most violent violence mankind has ever inflicted on itself.

Jesus and Muhammad are One. I am a witness to God's Love as expressed in the Qur'an.

Muhammad is the Leonard Cohen of his time, playing David's Secret Chord perfectly.

Again, the Voice of the God of Love shines through the statutes and punishments issued through the Qur'an to bring peace to Arabia.

I'll go further: Muhammad is the Good Samaritan spoken of by Jesus in His parable.

Muhammad found Arabia abandoned by Christianity at a time when Christianity was the most oppressive, tyrannical force the world had seen to that point, abandoned by Judaism which had become too elitist to seek converts.

The Priest and the Levite passed the wounded man by, but Muhammad stopped, poured oil and wine into his wounds, and left him in the care of the Innkeeper of the world. Who would that be...

The propaganda you say I have listened to are the very words in the Koran in the Hadith. Everything I have said has been written down as the word of God. Do you deny everything I have said is indeed there ? Did Muhammad not call be the slicing off of heads and feet of Infidels? Did he not declare the wifes of the slain as his own? Did he not have sex with a 9 year old child? Do these things sound like an enlightened being?

Brainwashing means to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. This is a form of brainwashing - "Do not question 'one word' of Allah or his prophets or you will face a painful doom". Please tell me Casey – Do you believe Prophet Muhammad to be ‘Perfect’ and Islam to be infallible? For I say unto you…. When Jesus came the overall human consiousness rose to another level – Muhammad was a regression in thought for the human race. All religions are not equal and should not be treated as such. Question ‘everything’ you hear.

Now… in my posts here, in one way or another, I have offended my Christian, Jewish and Muslim Brothers and Sisters with my beliefs… I mean none any ill will. Two of these groups will just shrug and say believe what you will. The other Group has Thousands.. if not Millions of adherents (Today) that would have me beheaded for my insolence .. That is the difference with the teachings of Muhammad – this is why the debate continues.

[Manna]

Now… in my posts here, in one way or another, I have offended my Christian, Jewish and Muslim Brothers and Sisters with my beliefs… I mean none any ill will. Two of these groups will just shrug and say believe what you will. The other Group has Thousands.. if not Millions of adherents (Today) that would have me beheaded for my insolence .. That is the difference with the teachings of Muhammad – this is why the debate continues.

All of these groups would shrug and say, believe as you will.
All of these groups would have you beheaded.
Everybody must get stoned.

[john.m.lake]

Manna: All of these groups would shrug and say, believe as you will.
All of these groups would have you beheaded.
Everybody must get stoned.

Hmm, interesting word play there Manna. Could you please explain your reasoning for posting them - your true thoughts on the matter. If your intent is made clear - I could offer a more clear rebuttal.

[Manna]

I don't always know how to exactly say what I was thinking when I say something. It included some of the following, I am sure, and the sentiment of all of it.

- I do get the idea that the Christian Right in America would be happy to reinstate slavery, to make women silent at the stove and on their backs, and to make capital & corporal punishment the only punishments. We also have the joy of the crusades to remember.

- Israel is requiring the Palestinians to recognize their right to exist, which to Israel seems to mean a right to rule the land. Israel has no requirement to recognize the right of Palestine to exist. Are you familiar with the atrocities at Gaza? That the treatment of Palestinians there resembles the treatment of Jews in early WWII? Areas of the city walled off and such.

- I don't feel a need to outline Muslim terrorism. It's all over.

- I have a cousin who went on a trip to Africa a few years ago. He went through his church to provide orphan children of AIDS victims with shoes. His youth group went with their church, but they didn't go to preach, they went to try to help in their own small way.

- Some of the most active participants fighting for the rights of Palestinians are Jews. Sara Roy lost a very large part of her family in the Holocaust.

- The Islamic world has provided us with much literature, art, and learning. The number 0 was invented by a Muslim. Without that we wouldn't have computers, and you and I wouldn't be talking. How's that for bringing people together out of nothing?

OK, so Christians, Jews and Muslims all have their screw ups, and we all have their heroes. It's utter folly to think one group has some kind of monopoly on cruelty and intolerance, likewise on kindness and generosity.

[john.m.lake]

Manna: I don't always know how to exactly say what I was thinking when I say something. It included some of the following, I am sure, and the sentiment of all of it.

- I do get the idea that the Christian Right in America would be happy to reinstate slavery, to make women silent at the stove and on their backs, and to make capital & corporal punishment the only punishments. We also have the joy of the crusades to remember.

- Israel is requiring the Palestinians to recognize their right to exist, which to Israel seems to mean a right to rule the land. Israel has no requirement to recognize the right of Palestine to exist. Are you familiar with the atrocities at Gaza? That the treatment of Palestinians there resembles the treatment of Jews in early WWII? Areas of the city walled off and such.

- I don't feel a need to outline Muslim terrorism. It's all over.

- I have a cousin who went on a trip to Africa a few years ago. He went through his church to provide orphan children of AIDS victims with shoes. His youth group went with their church, but they didn't go to preach, they went to try to help in their own small way.

- Some of the most active participants fighting for the rights of Palestinians are Jews. Sara Roy lost a very large part of her family in the Holocaust.

- The Islamic world has provided us with much literature, art, and learning. The number 0 was invented by a Muslim. Without that we wouldn't have computers, and you and I wouldn't be talking. How's that for bringing people together out of nothing?

OK, so Christians, Jews and Muslims all have their screw ups, and we all have their heroes. It's utter folly to think one group has some kind of monopoly on cruelty and intolerance, likewise on kindness and generosity.
I don't always know how to exactly say what I was thinking when I say something. It included some of the following, I am sure, and the sentiment of all of it.

- I do get the idea that the Christian Right in America would be happy to reinstate slavery, to make women silent at the stove and on their backs, and to make capital & corporal punishment the only punishments. We also have the joy of the crusades to remember.

- Israel is requiring the Palestinians to recognize their right to exist, which to Israel seems to mean a right to rule the land. Israel has no requirement to recognize the right of Palestine to exist. Are you familiar with the atrocities at Gaza? That the treatment of Palestinians there resembles the treatment of Jews in early WWII? Areas of the city walled off and such.

- I don't feel a need to outline Muslim terrorism. It's all over.

- I have a cousin who went on a trip to Africa a few years ago. He went through his church to provide orphan children of AIDS victims with shoes. His youth group went with their church, but they didn't go to preach, they went to try to help in their own small way.

- Some of the most active participants fighting for the rights of Palestinians are Jews. Sara Roy lost a very large part of her family in the Holocaust.

- The Islamic world has provided us with much literature, art, and learning. The number 0 was invented by a Muslim. Without that we wouldn't have computers, and you and I wouldn't be talking. How's that for bringing people together out of nothing?

OK, so Christians, Jews and Muslims all have their screw ups, and we all have their heroes. It's utter folly to think one group has some kind of monopoly on cruelty and intolerance, likewise on kindness and generosity.

I now understand. You believe I am ‘picking’ on Islam alone – and you have come to it’s defense. If you were to actually follow this entire thread – you will see that I have actually been picking on Islam, Christianity and Judaism as the thread progressed – I am an equal opportunity offender my friend.

In the last few posts I have been primarily discussing Prophet Muhammad and Jesus because Casey believes them to be on even ground – I believe they are not – I have stated my case and will continue to do so. And…Terrorism has not been part of the equation here.

But if you would like to go further on discussing Islam - Islam is not compatible with Freedom and there is NO separation of Church and State within it’s teachings – they are one in the same. I have been involved with debates on this matter and have said what I needed to - but – I can begin anew if you persist.

In any case – this thread started out as just a comment about the beautiful music of Leonard Cohen – but – I guess when discussing Leonard’s music you inevitably get lead in to a discussion of God and spirituality – just is the nature – it elicits an incredibly strong aesthetic response in the listener.

I am not speaking of the Islamic, Christian or Judaic God when I discuss ‘GOD’
The God I speak of is the culmination of the imagination of the human race, of the flowers in the garden, of the stars in the sky. The God I speak of is All That Is - there is nothing outside.

I believe It is time for a grand change in the nature of reality itself. One where people realize that 'The point of Power' is in the present and that we are here to learn and grow as spiritual beings. I am here to say that God is not outside - That God is 'All That Is' . The body is the spirit made flesh... the natural man - your very being - is a mirror image of your thoughts and beliefs. Change your thoughts and beliefs and the world will change around you. There is absolutely nothing wrong 'of course' with believing that there is but a Heaven or a Hell or a Purgatory or a Nirvana or non existence to go to after we pass on - BUT - I ask that you just be open to other possibilities.. for they are endless. Again.... please try to be kind to Everyone you meet.. 'even if they are not kind to you'.. a difficult thing to do... I have failed many times BUT it must be undertaken. Say it again and again, and again and again.

[Manna]

I now understand. You believe I am ‘picking’ on Islam alone – and you have come to it’s defense. If you were to actually follow this entire thread – you will see that I have actually been picking on Islam, Christianity and Judaism as the thread progressed – I am an equal opportunity offender my friend.

What you've said about what you said seems true enough, but what you said about what I said is simply not true. I didn't only come to the defense of Islam. I was trying to show why I thought that there are members of each religion who would be tolerant and those that wouldn't. It's utter folly to think one group (maybe I should have said any group?) has some kind of monopoly on cruelty and intolerance, likewise on kindness and generosity.

In the last few posts I have been primarily discussing Prophet Muhammad and Jesus because Casey believes them to be on even ground – I believe they are not – I have stated my case and will continue to do so. And…Terrorism has not been part of the equation here.

I mentioned terrorism as the example because it is the big fat scary thing that some seem to think Saddam Hussein and an evil bunch of Muslims invented on 9/11. (Even though the 9/11 guys were mostly Saudi, but that doesn't matter; what matters is that they were Muslim.) I was trying to mention some nastiness that had been perpetuated by each of the three religions up for discussion.

I also think Jesus & Mohamed were on the same ground, the same continent anyway, I don't know how even it was. They both managed to garner many followers, they both filled a need common to many in the time of their lives. I have never met either of them, and have no way of knowing if they were any more manifestation of God than any common person whose life has disappeared.

But if you would like to go further on discussing Islam - Islam is not compatible with Freedom and there is NO separation of Church and State within it’s teachings – they are one in the same. I have been involved with debates on this matter and have said what I needed to - but – I can begin anew if you persist.

Well, I am sorry to have missed out on your enlightened views. I skimmed them, and thought I tended to find more areas where I thought we could agree, but I get the feeling here that you are seeing me as a petty annoyance.
Do you think there is a religion that is compatible with freedom?

In any case – this thread started out as just a comment about the beautiful music of Leonard Cohen – but – I guess when discussing Leonard’s music you inevitably get lead in to a discussion of God and spirituality – just is the nature – it elicits an incredibly strong aesthetic response in the listener.

Yes, I am not sure exactly how that happened, but now that we are here, I am enjoying it.

I am not speaking of the Islamic, Christian or Judaic God when I discuss ‘GOD’
The God I speak of is the culmination of the imagination of the human race, of the flowers in the garden, of the stars in the sky. The God I speak of is All That Is - there is nothing outside.

The Jewish God is all that is and all that isn't. The Christian God is the God of all other Gods. Think you're God is bigger than my God?

I believe It is time for a grand change in the nature of reality itself.

You are not the only one. I recently listened to an interview with Terrence McKenna, who thinks (or thought? I think he might have died) that a grand change in the nature of reality itself is going to happen on 12/21/2012.

One where people realize that 'The point of Power' is in the present and that we are here to learn and grow as spiritual beings. I am here to say that God is not outside - That God is 'All That Is' . The body is the spirit made flesh... the natural man - your very being - is a mirror image of your thoughts and beliefs. Change your thoughts and beliefs and the world will change around you. There is absolutely nothing wrong 'of course' with believing that there is but a Heaven or a Hell or a Purgatory or a Nirvana or non existence to go to after we pass on - BUT - I ask that you just be open to other possibilities.. for they are endless. Again.... please try to be kind to Everyone you meet.. 'even if they are not kind to you'.. a difficult thing to do... I have failed many times BUT it must be undertaken. Say it again and again, and again and again.

I don't understand what you mean when you say "'The point of Power' is in the present." I don't know if we are here to learn and grow as spiritual beings. I can only bring myself to speak for myself, and what feels right for me. I am here to try to learn everything. If I learn, growth is unavoidable.

[Casey Butler]

These Prophets spoke for God – and there is no denying that truth and wisdom can be found in these holy books – but – not true enlightenment.

"There's a blaze of light in every word...", "Sanctify them with thy Truth, thy Word is Truth..."

The words you are typing are not from the Qur'an. The Hadith is like the Talmud, like the conclusions of the Vatican, like the invented doctrines of all religions... Though based on the Words of Prophets, obviously some misunderstanding creeps in when people make money from interpreting what God intends to interpret for each of us.

God through His Prophets speaks to our hearts.

What is the condition of your heart?

We have to read the words for ourselves, hearsay or the teachings of others who make their living from interpreting the "mysteries" in these books will not suffice.

I have been called a liar, which is basically what you are saying though I know your intentions are good, so many times - for simply pointing out that these books are the way to enlightenment - it's amazing how much it still hurts. But I have to plow on...

I stand by my "testimony" that the Qur'an is from God through Muhammad, as much as the Gospel is from God through Jesus, and the Torah is from God through Moses, and the Lotus Sutra is from God through... ... ...

It's the truth, I didn't come here to fool ya.