.Muffins or War
How Sweet it IS
Thank you, Ms Tysh~ for the 'restatement' of the point I thought I had made. 
The wheels of the FDA do indeed turn s l o o o w l y! Oiled by the biggest lobby with the most vested interest. However, the research studies do take an excruciatingly long time, and no responsible doctor would in good conscience recommend something that the verdict was still medically out on. Stevia may very well be a wonderful alternative to the already-proven safe 'Splenda'. Does it taste as good? If so, is it more or less expensive? The availability (i.e. only in health food stores?) and cost is always a critical factor with us 'at the checkout' too. 
I'm just thankful that the sugar industry finally developed their own (sucralose), i.e. 'joined', instead of trying to 'beat' the existing artificial sweeteners. We have choices. Ah, freedom! 
Byron~
That wus wunderfool!
I was brought up on good ol' porridge too (with a Scottish dad, what else!). When you don't have any weight concerns, or carb sensitivities, it's pretty good stuff. Whole, steel-cut rolled oats, though -- none of that instant/quick-cooking, flavoured, sugared, etc., etc. junk! Now..... about that lumpy custard!! 
For Tooth, and nothing but the TOOTH!! Tally ho!
(Back to back, they faced each other, drew their swords and shot each other!)
Warmest regards to u & yours
from me & mine,
~Makera
PS Take 2 Metamucil capsules and see me in the morning.
The wheels of the FDA do indeed turn s l o o o w l y! Oiled by the biggest lobby with the most vested interest. However, the research studies do take an excruciatingly long time, and no responsible doctor would in good conscience recommend something that the verdict was still medically out on. Stevia may very well be a wonderful alternative to the already-proven safe 'Splenda'. Does it taste as good? If so, is it more or less expensive? The availability (i.e. only in health food stores?) and cost is always a critical factor with us 'at the checkout' too. I'm just thankful that the sugar industry finally developed their own (sucralose), i.e. 'joined', instead of trying to 'beat' the existing artificial sweeteners. We have choices. Ah, freedom! Byron~
That wus wunderfool!
I was brought up on good ol' porridge too (with a Scottish dad, what else!). When you don't have any weight concerns, or carb sensitivities, it's pretty good stuff. Whole, steel-cut rolled oats, though -- none of that instant/quick-cooking, flavoured, sugared, etc., etc. junk! Now..... about that lumpy custard!! For Tooth, and nothing but the TOOTH!! Tally ho!
(Back to back, they faced each other, drew their swords and shot each other!)
Warmest regards to u & yours
from me & mine,
~Makera
PS Take 2 Metamucil capsules and see me in the morning.
It would be even better if the "countries too starved to notice or care" AND ''too full of corruption'' to meet us halfway and take some responsibility for their situation. As it is, a sale or giveaway would only fill the plates of the politicos and would make absolutely no difference at all to the people.
A bit too heavy 
? Kush ~ we know better than that. Many here understand and agree, beginning with me. Let's also not forget, give a man a muffin, you feed him for a day; teach a man to grow a muffin, you feed him for a lifetime. "As The Onion Peels......." Oh, "World Turns"? [Sorry about that ] [Sorry, too, about leaving the "woman" out of the muffin business.]
On the full-fledged-research requirement, Ms. Kera, I agree that beginning with the physician's oath, and hopefully permeated with ethics, regardless; they would recommend only what's known to be safe and healthy. Sometimes that requires research. The life spans and state of health of the natives in the Amazon, who already use Stevia for sweetening ~ as well as a multitude of other herbs ~ and where the incidence of degenerative diseases is virtually unknown, is mayhaps a large part of the empirical "research" aka evidence, sufficient for me. I heard somewhere that it is becoming more readily available, and at an affordable price . In the meantime, it's good enough for me! I won't be waiting on FDA , for adding this nutritional supplement to anything I'm eating or drinking, and wish to be sweet/er . Choice is still what it's all about, of course .
Regardless of those admittedly and agreed slooooooow wheels of the FDA, everything that they have ultimately approved is NOT, unfortunately, GOOD for us. Some is, of course! I don't bank my eating habits upon their approval, however. SO true, that the costs at the health-food store can be hefty. Oftimes, however, it's a matter of "a stitch in time, saves nine," with those costs. On the other hand, I've seen what appears to be "gouging," simply because the item is being sold at the health food store.
Now that the general public, which tows along behind it [$$$] Publix, Winn-Dixie, etc., and now even Wal-Mart
, is becoming aware of the health benefits of organic food, they are creating their own sections, labeled accordingly, and beginning to carry a variety of products that are mixed in amidst the regular fare. For anyone who might be interested, one can know that a fruit or vegetable is organic when the number on the small, [generally, if not always?] round stick-on label is a 5-digit one that begins with the number 9. The food industry has come to this agreement, which I've not heard of anyone transgressing.
~ Lizzytysh
? Kush ~ we know better than that. Many here understand and agree, beginning with me. Let's also not forget, give a man a muffin, you feed him for a day; teach a man to grow a muffin, you feed him for a lifetime. "As The Onion Peels......." Oh, "World Turns"? [Sorry about that ] [Sorry, too, about leaving the "woman" out of the muffin business.]On the full-fledged-research requirement, Ms. Kera, I agree that beginning with the physician's oath, and hopefully permeated with ethics, regardless; they would recommend only what's known to be safe and healthy. Sometimes that requires research. The life spans and state of health of the natives in the Amazon, who already use Stevia for sweetening ~ as well as a multitude of other herbs ~ and where the incidence of degenerative diseases is virtually unknown, is mayhaps a large part of the empirical "research" aka evidence, sufficient for me. I heard somewhere that it is becoming more readily available, and at an affordable price
. In the meantime, it's good enough for me! I won't be waiting on FDA , for adding this nutritional supplement to anything I'm eating or drinking, and wish to be sweet/er . Choice is still what it's all about, of course . Regardless of those admittedly and agreed slooooooow wheels of the FDA, everything that they have ultimately approved is NOT, unfortunately, GOOD for us. Some is, of course! I don't bank my eating habits upon their approval, however. SO true, that the costs at the health-food store can be hefty. Oftimes, however, it's a matter of "a stitch in time, saves nine," with those costs. On the other hand, I've seen what appears to be "gouging," simply because the item is being sold at the health food store.
Now that the general public, which tows along behind it [$$$] Publix, Winn-Dixie, etc., and now even Wal-Mart
, is becoming aware of the health benefits of organic food, they are creating their own sections, labeled accordingly, and beginning to carry a variety of products that are mixed in amidst the regular fare. For anyone who might be interested, one can know that a fruit or vegetable is organic when the number on the small, [generally, if not always?] round stick-on label is a 5-digit one that begins with the number 9. The food industry has come to this agreement, which I've not heard of anyone transgressing.~ Lizzytysh
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John the Shorts
- Posts: 491
- Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 4:22 pm
- Location: Wales
Dear All
Can we please forget the Porridge and the FDA and remember the real purpose of this thread - Muffins!
I am afraid this conflict will go on as long as President Blair continues his search for WMD (Warm Muffins of Deliciousness) and, despite there being no evidence of the existence of WMD in Iraq, the occupation is continuing.
We must all remember this and keep our muffins warm and syruppy!
JTS
Can we please forget the Porridge and the FDA and remember the real purpose of this thread - Muffins!
I am afraid this conflict will go on as long as President Blair continues his search for WMD (Warm Muffins of Deliciousness) and, despite there being no evidence of the existence of WMD in Iraq, the occupation is continuing.
We must all remember this and keep our muffins warm and syruppy!
JTS
I havent followed most of this thread but now i'm curious.....is there any independent documentation of this Stevia business other than the company distributing it? I don't believe you can simply take Amazon native's diet and translate it to a modern tech society ....it doesnt work that way....the lifestyles and environment are vastly different, for better or worse. Moreover, I always had the idea that US and Europe along with Japan and perhaps few other places had a vastly greater life expectancy than any other place (no doubt thanks in part to FDA). The exotic native tribes that you mention usually have an average life expectancy of 30 - 45 yrs or so whereas in the US it is 75 or so.
I have never been to an "organic" food section.....my diet usually consists of burgers or very oily and deep fried asian food and I'm hoping to live a long and healthy life. No doubt there are missteps and vested interests along the way (it comes with the territory) but organizations like FDA are critical for the healthy lifestyle that americans enjoy, compared to much of the world.
p.s. I loked up Stevia on the net....not much on it but then I didnt do a detailed search. I couldnt find much about degenerative diseases or lack of it in amazon tribes but other things (e.g. malnutrition) can kill you as well. Moreover. one of things that apparently Stevia does do is increase dopamine levels. Dopamine levels are also increased in schizophrenic patients in certain parts of the brain So perhaps a study should be done on these amazon natives of the incidence of schizophrenia in them.
I have never been to an "organic" food section.....my diet usually consists of burgers or very oily and deep fried asian food and I'm hoping to live a long and healthy life. No doubt there are missteps and vested interests along the way (it comes with the territory) but organizations like FDA are critical for the healthy lifestyle that americans enjoy, compared to much of the world.
p.s. I loked up Stevia on the net....not much on it but then I didnt do a detailed search. I couldnt find much about degenerative diseases or lack of it in amazon tribes but other things (e.g. malnutrition) can kill you as well. Moreover. one of things that apparently Stevia does do is increase dopamine levels. Dopamine levels are also increased in schizophrenic patients in certain parts of the brain So perhaps a study should be done on these amazon natives of the incidence of schizophrenia in them.
Last edited by Kush on Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
There's a certain innate trust of herbs and old remedies that has been lost ~ or shall we say stamped/stomped out ~ along the way, by various vested interests. There is a return to that which nature [G~d] has provided in our natural environments. People have been living in remote areas without the benefit of the FDA for many years. Modern medicine has helped tremendously in technological ways, surgeries, etc. ~ however, means for cures and healthy living have not necessarily come about via the FDA. Nature has "her" own, innate wisdom in regard to our health and what "she" has to offer us.
Not to extoll the virtues of coral calcium, in particular, but if you take the Okinawan areas, where it is ingested in their daily life, and their life spans are extraordinarily long; and you look at the explicit values of calcium in our systems, I don't think it's essential that the FDA go to Okinawa and approve coral calcium. The lifespans in Japan have been rather long; however, now that their diet has become more Americanized, they are beginning to suffer many of the conditions that previously were not prevalent in their culture. We have certainly had an impact on the life expectancies in other parts of the world, but when there is an area where a healthy diet is already a viable alternative, and population size is already controlled or within reason, deaths are often related to issues other than diet. In the Amazon, snake bite is one of the primary causes. Degenerative disease isn't.
I'm not sure where the 30-45 age span came from. However, at least one person I know visited the area with regularity as a late teen, helping her father perform eye surgeries. I can't recall his position at Cornell[?] University, but it was as head of some department. She's 59 now. There were certainly many beyond that age range.
Pharmaceutical companies, from Germany, the U.S., etc. have gone into the wilds to try to extract the secrets from the natives, learning the medicinal value and applications of the various plants and herbs, so as to harvest some, return to their companies, and try to isolate the active ingredients for marketing in the form of a drug/supplement. However, the synergistic nature of the components within the plants/herbs has foiled them, as the singular component[s] cannot be isolated out, and still have the same healing effect. This, apparently, becomes a problem for the companies, as they can only patent singular components. However, they are managing to rape the area, harvesting for purposes of big money, and paying the locals only a paltry sum for their efforts; and are deeply offending them with their greedy efforts, to the extent that the locals and medicine men, etc. are clamming up. None of this information came from any company, but from a lengthy segment on NPR over a year ago, which included a wide range of interviews. The companies can see that the herbs/plants have nutritional and healing effects. Their only concern is to get their marketing hand in it.
The American Indian knows many plant and herbal healing remedies, as well. The AMA, FDA, and all the other acronyms just have a difficult time entering their [marketing] territory, so would rather write them off as old-wives' tales, witches' brews, etc.
This is not to say that these organizations have had no beneficial effects in the third-world countries, etc., where vaccines and antibiotics have effectively addressed plagues and rampant disease. However, when it comes to nutrition, that's a whole different matter. Your diet and mine are significantly different, to begin with, so I'm not surprized that we don't embrace each other's views of the FDA.
~ Elizabeth
Not to extoll the virtues of coral calcium, in particular, but if you take the Okinawan areas, where it is ingested in their daily life, and their life spans are extraordinarily long; and you look at the explicit values of calcium in our systems, I don't think it's essential that the FDA go to Okinawa and approve coral calcium. The lifespans in Japan have been rather long; however, now that their diet has become more Americanized, they are beginning to suffer many of the conditions that previously were not prevalent in their culture. We have certainly had an impact on the life expectancies in other parts of the world, but when there is an area where a healthy diet is already a viable alternative, and population size is already controlled or within reason, deaths are often related to issues other than diet. In the Amazon, snake bite is one of the primary causes. Degenerative disease isn't.
I'm not sure where the 30-45 age span came from. However, at least one person I know visited the area with regularity as a late teen, helping her father perform eye surgeries. I can't recall his position at Cornell[?] University, but it was as head of some department. She's 59 now. There were certainly many beyond that age range.
Pharmaceutical companies, from Germany, the U.S., etc. have gone into the wilds to try to extract the secrets from the natives, learning the medicinal value and applications of the various plants and herbs, so as to harvest some, return to their companies, and try to isolate the active ingredients for marketing in the form of a drug/supplement. However, the synergistic nature of the components within the plants/herbs has foiled them, as the singular component[s] cannot be isolated out, and still have the same healing effect. This, apparently, becomes a problem for the companies, as they can only patent singular components. However, they are managing to rape the area, harvesting for purposes of big money, and paying the locals only a paltry sum for their efforts; and are deeply offending them with their greedy efforts, to the extent that the locals and medicine men, etc. are clamming up. None of this information came from any company, but from a lengthy segment on NPR over a year ago, which included a wide range of interviews. The companies can see that the herbs/plants have nutritional and healing effects. Their only concern is to get their marketing hand in it.
The American Indian knows many plant and herbal healing remedies, as well. The AMA, FDA, and all the other acronyms just have a difficult time entering their [marketing] territory, so would rather write them off as old-wives' tales, witches' brews, etc.
This is not to say that these organizations have had no beneficial effects in the third-world countries, etc., where vaccines and antibiotics have effectively addressed plagues and rampant disease. However, when it comes to nutrition, that's a whole different matter. Your diet and mine are significantly different, to begin with, so I'm not surprized that we don't embrace each other's views of the FDA.
~ Elizabeth
You may be able to obtain a government grant for such research and study, Kush, if you care to spend some time in the jungle.A postscript on the plants is that there are a number of types known as "signature plants," whose healing purpose and use are mirrored in the shape of the leaves, the colour of the sap, etc.
I'd also like to clarify that, if it came across as my believing that long life spans are due to Stevia, that was not my intent. Stevia is but one of many known, as well as unknown, herbs/plants in the Rainforest, which are intense, dense, and power-packed as a result of their natural, growth environment, where they obtain nutrients from the inconceivably rich soil, and other plants, as some work in tandem/"with" each other in the growth process, enriching each other as they grow.
My views on all this are considered less mainstream; and more of a "back to Nature," rather than "off to McDonald's," perspective. A paradigm difference perhaps.......certainly enough to make us highly skeptical of the other's position.
This might scare yer, Liz:
Screw McDonald's. Save the Rainforest!! Absolutely agree on that; the Lungs, and Pharmacopoeia, of the Earth are being eaten away by greed and arrogance! The South American countries involved bear full responsibility for the companies or industries they allow to exploit their/the world's resources.
Actually, Kush, the burgers won't hurt you; it's the buns and potatoes that'll do you in. Hate to see your triglyceride levels if you indulge regularly.
~Ms Kera (like that)
Screw McDonald's. Save the Rainforest!! Absolutely agree on that; the Lungs, and Pharmacopoeia, of the Earth are being eaten away by greed and arrogance! The South American countries involved bear full responsibility for the companies or industries they allow to exploit their/the world's resources.
Actually, Kush, the burgers won't hurt you; it's the buns and potatoes that'll do you in. Hate to see your triglyceride levels if you indulge regularly.
~Ms Kera (like that)
The REAL 'MUFFINS'
Yes, JTS~
Just think of those lucky Iraqi girls getting to see our Stud Muffins in their hunky uniforms; risking their lives every day to keep the peace while the country recovers and rebuilds -- from 30 years of degeneration, torture, oppression and neglect. It just ain't fair is it!
~Makera
PS..and they get MREs, (i.e.'Meals Rejected by Ethiopeans'), not even muffins!
Just think of those lucky Iraqi girls getting to see our Stud Muffins in their hunky uniforms; risking their lives every day to keep the peace while the country recovers and rebuilds -- from 30 years of degeneration, torture, oppression and neglect. It just ain't fair is it!
~Makera
PS..and they get MREs, (i.e.'Meals Rejected by Ethiopeans'), not even muffins!
Last edited by Makera on Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Well....this can be an endless argument so I'll gracefully exit with a few points.
Lizzytysh.....I don't dispute that some of what you say is true....but what you call "Nature" is the outcome of eons, millions of years. This is not a competition between "Nature" and modern medicine. The modern life has changed irrevocably - for better or worse (personally I believe greatly for better - how many slaves did you meet today?) - and there is no point going on and on about what once was, and what could be etc etc.
Amazon natives or Okinawan diet won't help with your daily American grind. BTW, I think the natives of Okinawa were not really considered Japanese but were heavily discriminated against by them...just an aside.
As for the 30-45 yrs.....no I don't know exactly..but it is in the right ballpark. The average life expectancy of the so-called third world is about 52-55 and the native tribes within these countries are much less than the average due to lack of medical facilites etc etc. I doubt the primary coz' of death in amazon is snakebite....more likely lack of medical facilites (the evil modern medicine ) and malnutrition. At any rate, what's the point of having a fantastic diet that would theoretically keep you alive for a long long time if only it weren't for those damn snakebites, and you don't know how to cure that ?
I can assure you that never in the history of mankind has any sizable civilization enjoyed the average life expectancy as in US, western europe etc in the present day.
Byron....I have checked my cheek and rest assured there is no tongue in it.
Makera.....thanks for the tip...i do need the buns for the burgers but I try to balance it by indulging in some physical sports.
Lizzytysh.....I don't dispute that some of what you say is true....but what you call "Nature" is the outcome of eons, millions of years. This is not a competition between "Nature" and modern medicine. The modern life has changed irrevocably - for better or worse (personally I believe greatly for better - how many slaves did you meet today?) - and there is no point going on and on about what once was, and what could be etc etc.
Amazon natives or Okinawan diet won't help with your daily American grind. BTW, I think the natives of Okinawa were not really considered Japanese but were heavily discriminated against by them...just an aside.
As for the 30-45 yrs.....no I don't know exactly..but it is in the right ballpark. The average life expectancy of the so-called third world is about 52-55 and the native tribes within these countries are much less than the average due to lack of medical facilites etc etc. I doubt the primary coz' of death in amazon is snakebite....more likely lack of medical facilites (the evil modern medicine
) and malnutrition. At any rate, what's the point of having a fantastic diet that would theoretically keep you alive for a long long time if only it weren't for those damn snakebites, and you don't know how to cure that ? I can assure you that never in the history of mankind has any sizable civilization enjoyed the average life expectancy as in US, western europe etc in the present day.
Byron....I have checked my cheek and rest assured there is no tongue in it.
Makera.....thanks for the tip...i do need the buns for the burgers but I try to balance it by indulging in some physical sports.