I find Leonard's Music Absolutely Liberating

General discussion about Leonard Cohen's songs and albums
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Pete
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Re: I find Leonard's Music Absolutely Liberating

Post by Pete »

lizzytysh wrote:Hi Pete ~

While "Respect for oneself" certainly has lots of appeal on many levels, there's something about it that troubles me. It seems that there's an inherent, de facto implication in it that those who don't connect with Leonard in 'the' way that each of us do [and I would suggest that there's not even a universal way that, that happens], somehow doesn't have respect for themselves.

~ Lizzy
Hi Lizzy
There's no implication that others do not respect themselves.
'others' ?? did I say 'others' ??? :) It's not a case of 'us and them'.

I think respect is such a powerful concept that it's not easy to use in this context.
I think that listening to Leonard helps one to respect oneself in a different way.

..and now Diane plays devils advocate and turns it on its head :D

I think I'll just 'accept' my good fortune in meeting and talking with all you wonderful people... now, what bought us all here??? :lol:

All good things
Pete
1974: Brighton Dome 1976: Birmingham Town Hall 1993: London RAH 2008: Manchester Opera House, London O2, Matlock Bandstand, Birmingham NEC 2009: Liverpool Echo Arena 2013 Birmingham
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Joney
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Re: I find Leonard's Music Absolutely Liberating

Post by Joney »

This is an interesting topic especially for me, a relatively new fan. I feel that Leonard's music is so great, and that I have gained so much pleasure from it, that I want everybody to share this. However, if I went down that route, I could become a Leonard "bore" and some people are just not interested and don't get it. I have friends who love musicians that I don't like and my friends are equally passionate about their music. It is just a matter of taste really, each to their own. I'm just glad to have discovered Leonard's music and this site, and to have met others who love Leonard's music too. I'm sure that amongst this community there are disparate other musical tastes and personalities. I don't think that there is anything special about Leonard's fans or equally that they are lacking in any way. (Diane, you're being naughty) Although having said that, other fans are special to me because they love Leonard's music too.
Diane

Re: I find Leonard's Music Absolutely Liberating

Post by Diane »

Hi Joney,

I am so happy about the LC fans I have met, and particularly the handful I have got to know well. I disagree with you that there isn't anything special about Leonard's fans. The ones I know are all intelligent, deep-thinking, creative, warm individuals, with a great capacity for passion, and a wicked sense of humour. Stubborn is a word that also springs to mind.

Don't tell me you don't fit the criteria, Joney ;-) ?

And speaking for myself, I am lacking (longing)!

Well, I've posted a lot today. (It's raining heavily here.) Nice to have time to read through some threads, and leave some notes here and there.

Cheers,

Diane
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Joney
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Re: I find Leonard's Music Absolutely Liberating

Post by Joney »

The ones I know are all intelligent, deep-thinking, creative, warm individuals, with a great capacity for passion, and a wicked sense of humour. Stubborn is a word that also springs to mind.
I'm not going to disagree with you there Diane but I'm don't think I'm particularly intelligent. My husband says I'm stubborn but I'm not and no matter how much he says I am I will never agree that I am stubborn. :lol: Although I haven't really got to know other fans really well I did get a very warm feeling from everybody I met in October.
Diane

Re: I find Leonard's Music Absolutely Liberating

Post by Diane »

Joney wrote:
My husband says I'm stubborn but I'm not and no matter how much he says I am I will never agree that I am stubborn.
As a mule, I'd say.

Joney I am sending you an IQ test. If you don't achieve a good score I'm afraid you'll have to leave.

I must say I am grateful, too, for my non-LC friends, because they tell me when I am talking, er, nonsense, and keep my feet on the ground. I have no idea whether in fact as a group LC fans do have significant personality differences, but it is interesting to speculate 8) .
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Joney
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Re: I find Leonard's Music Absolutely Liberating

Post by Joney »

Hey Diane, I did the IQ test and it seems that I am a genius. It seems that it is a sign of genius to think that you are not intelligent as only stupid people think that they are intelligent. Can I stay now or am I too clever?
Diane

Re: I find Leonard's Music Absolutely Liberating

Post by Diane »

Joney, you gave the correct answer! Now you can never leave. It's a one way ticket and the train don't stop.
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Pete
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Re: I find Leonard's Music Absolutely Liberating

Post by Pete »

Diane wrote:Joney, you gave the correct answer! Now you can never leave. It's a one way ticket and the train don't stop.
Diane
You state that it's a one way ticket but you fail to mention the destination. If there is no destination then there is a danger of arriving back where you started but if that is the case then it would have to be a return ticket. This paradox you have expertly created is further complicated by the fact that you say 'the train don't stop'. By not using the correct grammar of ' the train doesn't stop' you have added that extra dimension of uncertainty. Being on a train that 'don't stop' has different consequences to one that 'doesn't stop' and I congratulate you on that inference. Returning to the one way ticket that has no destination (although possibly I should have not have used the word 'returning' to commence the sentence as that equally adds a mental conflict... but I will leave it in anyway to help promote the paradox) it needs to be said that a ticket for 'anything' has a cost and because the destination in unknown then the cost, which should be in proportion to the length of the journey, cannot be shown on the ticket.
Now, here's the tricky bit....
someone standing in a field watching this train go by sees us all on the same journey but those on the train are all holding tickets with no destinations....yet each passenger has paid their own price without knowing where the train is going. Each individual on the train perceives the person standing in the field as 'one who cannot get on the train'. The same person in the field perceives the train as 'one I don't want to get on'...for he or she sees the faces of those looking out. The irony is that there's only one train and if this person, in later life, regrets not buying a ticket then there is no train to get on..for it is one way and not returning. You may argue that it is all relative anyway because with no ticket there still exists a train...but can you have tickets for no train?
So I ask 2 questions...
1. Joney... Did the train actually stop for you to get on? If it did then there must have been an opportunity for others to get off yet Diane states that 'you can never leave'..which I presume is the same for everyone. Again Diane, I salute you!
2. Diane..have I passed the test?
3..and where's the buffet car?
damn..that was 3 questions.

Pete
1974: Brighton Dome 1976: Birmingham Town Hall 1993: London RAH 2008: Manchester Opera House, London O2, Matlock Bandstand, Birmingham NEC 2009: Liverpool Echo Arena 2013 Birmingham
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Paula
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Re: I find Leonard's Music Absolutely Liberating

Post by Paula »

Not being a people person myself and often preferring my own company I have to say that almost all the people I have met from the forum I have managed to connect with in some way or another which in itself is a novelty for me. That is not to say I am misanthropic just introvert and considering I have not known you forever I quite like most of you. Whether that works both ways I have no idea and neither do I care :lol:
Dublin 14th June, Manchester 20th June, O2 17th July, Matlock Bandstand Aug 28, O2 14th November, Royal Albert Hall 17th and 18th November 2008, MBW 11th July 2009, Liverpool Echo 14th July 2009
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Joney
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Re: I find Leonard's Music Absolutely Liberating

Post by Joney »

1. Joney... Did the train actually stop for you to get on?
The train seemed to be chugging along, I observed it for a while, decided I liked the look of it, ran alongside it and hopped on. Not sure if I would ever want to get off anyway, I enjoy it too much. I'm sure people may hop off from time to time but they will surely hop back on again.

I got another two albums yesterday, 'Songs from a Room' and 'New Skin for the Old Ceremony' and I continue to be blown away. Only 'Recent Songs' now and my collection will be complete, now I have to start exploring the written works. I want to take things slowly though and have time to digest the works.

Paula, although I am sociable I too love my own company. I find it strange when people tell me that they have to fill their hours with social engagements. I find myself great fun and the liberty of having only to please myself great so I can relate to what you say. I wish I had had more time to really get to know people recently at the Green Note, everyone seemed so nice. But hopefully on the train journey I will continue to meet great people.
Diane

Re: I find Leonard's Music Absolutely Liberating

Post by Diane »

Joney, I envy you still "getting to know" Leonard's work 8) .
Paula, although I am sociable I too love my own company.
Ah yes, that's another nice thing about LC people; they don't need to have it spelt out that you just want to be left alone (for god's sake!). Apart from when you don't, that is.
Pete wrote:
Diane
You state that it's a one way ticket but you fail to mention the destination. If there is no destination then there is a danger of arriving back where you started but if that is the case then it would have to be a return ticket. This paradox you have expertly created is further complicated by the fact that you say 'the train don't stop'. By not using the correct grammar of ' the train doesn't stop' you have added that extra dimension of uncertainty. Being on a train that 'don't stop' has different consequences to one that 'doesn't stop' and I congratulate you on that inference. Returning to the one way ticket that has no destination (although possibly I should have not have used the word 'returning' to commence the sentence as that equally adds a mental conflict... but I will leave it in anyway to help promote the paradox) it needs to be said that a ticket for 'anything' has a cost and because the destination in unknown then the cost, which should be in proportion to the length of the journey, cannot be shown on the ticket.
Good evening Pete!

1. Of course it's a paradox. Name one thing in life that isn't a paradox.

2. It doesn't add a mental conflict. Accepting the paradox eases mental conflicts.

3. The train definitely don't stop. I think you'll find Elton John said, "this train don't stop here anymore". Surely he'd know.

4. I assure you that you can't get a return ticket. You are born on a train. It's one way. There is only one destination. You can swap carriages if you like. But it don't stop.

5.
Now, here's the tricky bit....
someone standing in a field watching this train go by sees us all on the same journey but those on the train are all holding tickets with no destinations....yet each passenger has paid their own price without knowing where the train is going. Each individual on the train perceives the person standing in the field as 'one who cannot get on the train'. The same person in the field perceives the train as 'one I don't want to get on'...for he or she sees the faces of those looking out. The irony is that there's only one train and if this person, in later life, regrets not buying a ticket then there is no train to get on..for it is one way and not returning. You may argue that it is all relative anyway because with no ticket there still exists a train...but can you have tickets for no train?
Would you mind writing out the equation for that problem. And then solving it. You are correct that it is all relative. If I didn't have to take all my relatives on the train, I might have had a far smoother journey.

6.
So I ask 2 questions...
1. Joney... Did the train actually stop for you to get on? If it did then there must have been an opportunity for others to get off yet Diane states that 'you can never leave'..which I presume is the same for everyone. Again Diane, I salute you!
2. Diane..have I passed the test?
3..and where's the buffet car?
damn..that was 3 questions.
We have already covered this. Please pay attention. LC world is, as I have mentioned once before on here, like the Hotel California: You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

7. Pete, you will know if you have passed the test. Mathematicians are the only people who really know any actual answers to anything. Aren't you?

8. I don't know, where is the buffet car? I usually wait until I see someone wobbling past, precariously balancing a coffee and a bag of sarnies, to figure out the right direction. But, the buffet car don't matter, cos, you know, you gotta stay hungry...
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Pete
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Re: I find Leonard's Music Absolutely Liberating

Post by Pete »

'the buffet car don't matter' ????
I don't think Elton John wrote that!!!!
You're making it up now :D
1974: Brighton Dome 1976: Birmingham Town Hall 1993: London RAH 2008: Manchester Opera House, London O2, Matlock Bandstand, Birmingham NEC 2009: Liverpool Echo Arena 2013 Birmingham
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daka
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Re: I find Leonard's Music Absolutely Liberating

Post by daka »

Nice Thread!!

I think Jennifer Warren explained this well when she said that our society (especially U.S.) has an attitude of "keep the sunny side up!"...i.e. look only at the bright side...now this is maybe ok if you can see both sides and choose to only embrace the sunny side with your mind. Our society, especially Leonard's era was filled with "Leave it to Beaver" and later "The Waltons" offering psychotically idyllic representations of our existence. I remember as an immigrant Irish kid in Montreal being BITTERLY disappointed because my reality was nothing like the idealized life presented on the telly.

I also feel extremely liberated listening to Leonard.

Liberated from the myopic idealism of the majority.
Liberated from preconceptions
Liberated from false expectations.
Liberated from Catholic sexual repression.
Liberated from lack of wisdom
Liberated from Dishonesty (already said by many)
Liberated from bad habits eg. perfectionism (..crack in everything)
Liberated from POP
Liberated from RAP
Liberated from Rock ( I only listened and enjoyed in small doses)
Liberated from the Madding Crowd

Thanks for the thread

daka
If you don't become the ocean you will be seasick every day....Jikan (aka Leonard Cohen)

It's comin' from the feel that this ain't exactly real, or it's real, but it ain't exactly there! . Jikan
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lizzytysh
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Re: I find Leonard's Music Absolutely Liberating

Post by lizzytysh »

Hi Daka ~

I like the creation and content of your summation, with its concision and accuracy.


~ Lizzy
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde
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daka
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Re: I find Leonard's Music Absolutely Liberating

Post by daka »

To Lizzy


I have met many special people
in this lovely forum
in a few short weeks
you are the first on the list
not only for the kind compliments
to me
I have watched how you treat
us all
delicately, sweetly, kindly, respectfully
may your style touch us all
you are an anchor
a pillar of virtue
i don't think it's just
the cyber-you
i suspect it is your nature true
If you don't become the ocean you will be seasick every day....Jikan (aka Leonard Cohen)

It's comin' from the feel that this ain't exactly real, or it's real, but it ain't exactly there! . Jikan
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