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Re: Leonard Cohen Plays the Hammer 2008

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:07 am
by Alan Alda
You didn't write the poem you are trying to describe. You are describing a poem you wanted to write.
As you were.
cheers,
Laurie
p.s. there is no justification for using cliches unless you are trying to be ironic. Otherwise, they are lazy thinking.

Re: Leonard Cohen Plays the Hammer 2008

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:11 am
by J.R. MacLean
You didn't write the poem you are trying to describe. You are describing a poem you wanted to write.
As you were.This is cute rhetoric that means nothing. I wrote the poem I wanted to write.You were incorrect on 'namaste' and off base on the champagne bubbles.
Why not just acknowledge that, instead of inserting a vaguely dismissive bon mot?


p.s. there is no justification for using cliches unless you are trying to be ironic. Otherwise, they are lazy thinking.
This is a lazy judgement. Who decides what is 'ironic' and what is 'lazy'?" With all due respect Laurie, you've offered only disparaging judgements.
Where are the constructive suggestions to make the work better? I would like to check out a piece or two of yours to see how it is done.... ;)


Here's a quickly concocted list of what are arguably cliches from a well known writer:

"I'm your man"
"name in vain"
"what's it to you"
"time can heal this wound"
"aching for you"
"whispering to my soul"
"the good guys lost"
"the fight was fixed"

Re: Leonard Cohen Plays the Hammer 2008

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:17 am
by imaginary friend
Love your poem JR. It was so true to the atmosphere of the Tour concerts. And to Leonard's very sexy, who-cares-if-it's-a-cliche, style.

Re: Leonard Cohen Plays the Hammer 2008

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:21 am
by J.R. MacLean
imaginary friend wrote:Love your poem JR. It was so true to the atmosphere of the Tour concerts. And to Leonard's very sexy, who-cares-if-it's-a-cliche, style.
say imaginary friend, for someone imaginary you bang that nail head true. Thanks!

Re: Leonard Cohen Plays the Hammer 2008

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:26 am
by imaginary friend
I wish I could say I'm qualified to critique, but that's not the case. However, I'm very good and sweet. Ask Cate and Manna :roll:

Re: Leonard Cohen Plays the Hammer 2008

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:32 pm
by Alan Alda
Well, I'd share a poem or two with you, but I don't respect your judgement. You think cliches are okay. I am willing to bet you never even considered the fact you had cliches in your poem (till I mentioned it) and pulled the 'nostalgia' bit out of your, ummm, hat. It's not necessary to go beyond that point for me.
For starters, your Fizzy women explanation was in your head, not in your poem. Hope that helps.
Namaste(s). I'm still not convinced. If your use of the word in this context requires the use of a yoga teacher, then it is not very accessible to the average reader now is it?

Seriously, I'm done. Bask in the glory of those who like it and nevermind me. Like I said, in all sincerity last time, 'as you were.'

Laurie

p.s. Please, you didn't write a song you wrote a poem. Now you are trying to compare yourself to Leonard by listing cliches in his songs. Sounds desperate to me and a disservice to Leonard.

Re: Leonard Cohen Plays the Hammer 2008

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:51 pm
by Violet
Hi J.R.,

Cliches aside, I think the poem aspires to have an austerity to it -- a slight zen-like quality, perhaps on the order of haikus. If you were to push beyond the cliches, this could be the aspect to try to hold on to.

In terms of Leonard's lyrics, I actually don't think they're cliche because of how they come across. That to me is the final measure, although that becomes more difficult to qualify. It might be the difference between something feeling classic and something that feels cliche. The former revives what we all might have thought was dead, the latter confirms that there is indeed a corpse in the room.

I hope that this is helpful.

Violet

[much later edit: as per prior note on this thread, I'm revisiting here after all this time, deciding what to leave behind]

Re: Leonard Cohen Plays the Hammer 2008

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:56 pm
by Manna
I didn't think that the "fizzies" and the "fine wines" were the same women.

I thought fizzy was an interesting description - it has enough room in it to let your reader do some of the work deciding exactly what that means. To go from there to fine wine is a bit of a let down. It effects the "fizzy" and narrows it to champagne, whether you meant it that way or not, and which comes to mind anyway, along with other possibilities; it is a cliche, as Laurie points out, and since champagne is higher energy, your poem loses steam when we get to fine wine. (That last point can be fine, depending on context.)

Also keep in mind that liking something and thinking it's good aren't the same.

And yes, I can attest, Imaginary Friend is good, but I have never tasted her, and cannot attest as to her flavour. However, I do wish to remind her that Cate and I are not married... yet.

Re: Leonard Cohen Plays the Hammer 2008

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:29 pm
by J.R. MacLean
Violet: Your observations are interesting and intelligent. I'm not sure I'd want to take the thing too much in the direction of 'Haiku-ness', for fear the casual
intimacy that was part of that evening might be lost.

And indeed, LC's lyrics do not come across as cliche at all, nor does his poetry. So-called cliches are everywhere, even in great writing.
Good writing lives and works, cliches or no. Some writers in their zeal to avoid cliche, end up with something 'original' but, alas, often incomprehensible
and dead.

Manna: I think I get what you are saying. For me the 'fizzy' comes first and applies only to the first group of women, as a descriptive by itself. I didn't intend, nor do

I necessarily see the champagne connection. You know, fizzy by itself suggests bubbly, air-headed, young etc. I like 'fine wine' as a universal compliment that nearly everyone can relate to.

Again, I'm happy you enjoyed the work!

Re: Leonard Cohen Plays the Hammer 2008

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:32 pm
by mickey_one
Alan Alda wrote:You didn't write the poem you are trying to describe. You are describing a poem you wanted to write.
As you were.
cheers,
Laurie
p.s. there is no justification for using cliches unless you are trying to be ironic. Otherwise, they are lazy thinking.

Nope, Laurie- this is the poem he wanted to write

A fridge in the summer evening
Is useful for
Fizzy
Or fine wine

The musicians
Again and again
Sprinkle hats

There is a gathering
Of ageless clichés
Some are young
Others kneel
Some are Neil Young

This is a poem
about Ontario
and its hopeless
hopeless
hopeless
MacLean can you hear me now?

Michael, the cliché hater

ps Let’s hope this thread doesn't turn
namaste

and pps J.R. welcome to the House of Fun and thanks for your poem. It's a weird old place here. Sometimes newbies share their entire back catalogue over the first week or so of their first appearance. There are oldie recidivists as well who inflict pain with a new work a day. but there are some proper good decent geezers as well, the old married couplet Cate and Manan for example, and deffo. Laurie.

pps I once got asked by a foreigner here (anyone not English qualifies) if "deffo" was an insult. It is , of course, an abbreviation for definitely (so that saved me time then).

Re: Leonard Cohen Plays the Hammer 2008

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:14 am
by Alan Alda
Namaste Mickey-san.

The cheque is in the mail, as usual. 8)

Excellent choice mentioning Neil Young in your poem. It is both a tribute to a Canadian and a nod to his being a musician (if I remember correctly). And tossing multiple hats in there, well, I could really get the gist of your meaning.

And speaking of fizzy wine...I had a red wine in Venice a couple of years ago that was 'frizzante'. If for nothing else, I'd love to go back for another glass of that stuff. But I digress...it's one of those days....I need a drink. McCain nominated our anti-womens' rights, anti-environmnet governor whose only experience other than two years in the gov's mansion is being mayor of a small Alaskan town. Gawd help us!!

cheerio,
L

Re: Leonard Cohen Plays the Hammer 2008

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:07 pm
by Cate
:shock:
Manna wrote: And yes, I can attest, Imaginary Friend is good, but I have never tasted her, and cannot attest as to her flavour. However, I do wish to remind her that Cate and I are not married... yet.
:cry: ohhhh, Mannaaaa :cry:

Re: Leonard Cohen Plays the Hammer 2008

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:40 pm
by J.R. MacLean
Yikes. where to start?

Mickey: I have to admit I'm amused. It is a little known fact ( because I made it up) that Neil Young is actually from PTBO, ONT. In truth, his Dad Scott, an excellent sportswriter in his time, lived nearby, near a town called Lakefield. And I've not given up on Laurie, though he is apparently intent on dismissing myself.

Re: Leonard Cohen Plays the Hammer 2008

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:20 pm
by mickey_one
where to start, J.R., is for you to know that Laurie is 100% female!

cheers,

michael

Re: Leonard Cohen Plays the Hammer 2008

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:58 pm
by J.R. MacLean
Oops, my bad.

I mistook the 'tude for that of a young man.