Mirek- that is not Peter talking-it is a school he's been attending-the Protestant ministers.
I am a bit surprised though, because lately they've been more tolerant towards Catholic Church, (mainly because they already have forgotten what the protest was about) wearing ornate at liturgy, singing liturgy etc. The general thing still remains though-no Pope.
What Peter is talking now-the Pope makes himself a Saint and doesn't give the glory to God-it is an old aunts tale, at times used to scare God fearing peoples with a great affect-lately have been dismissed as ineffective.
This makes me curious however-why is Peter still sticking with that? Sure enough the protest of Luther was incredibly successful-
the trouble is now -
there is not only the Luther church but de Baptists and Methodists, de Pentecost's and de Adventists, de Mormons and the Anglicans etc.
What was the protest about - is very tough to remember
except for the terrible fight what Luther was having with the farts-he did enjoy the German sour kraut stew with good ham even on Friday, no wonder devil was talking to him so often? Hearty foods do that.
Mirek- we got to be kool with this
Pope John Paul II ~ Goodbye To A Good Man
Now that sour kraut is mentioned I must add a comment here. I always enjoy passionate discussions like these though my own contribution is nothing but an invisible sigh. People who have talked to JP2 are telling about his charisma and his sincere interest in the person whom he was talking to. He failed and succeeded like any of us. Truth is a shy deer, maybe it's only a legend like Nessie. But charisma is a gift. Leonard got a lot of it, also my Grandpa did, everybody loved him. Myself I have torn everyone who reached out for me. Let me end with a poem:
Charisma
please find me
I'm almost 50
Charisma
please find me
I'm almost 50
Last edited by Henning on Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Henning 
good luck, I'm sure it's around the corner! best wishes!
For the record, I haven't stuck the knives into JPII at all. I have opinions about his "reign" and what he did with it, but overall I guess I would say he has done a lot of good, and whatever he may have done or not done that resulted in "bad" was not out of malice. The comment about christian spirit was not directed towards JPIIs work.
Jo, I loved your quote - it made me think of an exhibition I saw at the Whitney last year, of Romare Bearden, who was an artist with strong musical talent and experience. If you like what Wynton Marsalis has said here, I think you would like RBs work (they also worked together). His art - I can't put it into words, but I think you would love it.
IC
good luck, I'm sure it's around the corner! best wishes!For the record, I haven't stuck the knives into JPII at all. I have opinions about his "reign" and what he did with it, but overall I guess I would say he has done a lot of good, and whatever he may have done or not done that resulted in "bad" was not out of malice. The comment about christian spirit was not directed towards JPIIs work.
Jo, I loved your quote - it made me think of an exhibition I saw at the Whitney last year, of Romare Bearden, who was an artist with strong musical talent and experience. If you like what Wynton Marsalis has said here, I think you would like RBs work (they also worked together). His art - I can't put it into words, but I think you would love it.
IC
Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.
Buddha
Buddha
Anyone who has ever stood in a receiving line and been patronized, right on to the next, either with a quick, rote hello; or a glance with a real smile and acknowledgement to the 'known' one, standing somewhere behind you, and with whom a real exchange will occur ~ knows how it feels to be given real time and real respect in the moment with the person standing on the other side of the handshake.
Worldwide actions and impact are far more than effective, receiving line behaviour ~ however, that sincerity of one-on-one, when hundreds await, yet the receiver is willing to stand, to 'properly' receive every one, speaks to a different kind of person than is the norm in 'public service' of any nature. No, I'm not saying that it all comes down to this. It's not all about receiving lines and charisma. However, when people had an audience with Pope John Paul II, they knew for certain that they were in his presence, and he in theirs. Feeling the 'invisible commoner' in a line is not a good feeling. It still says much about him.
President Bill Clinton also had that charisma, and the ability to focus one-on-one with those strangers he met.
Henning ~ . Great adaptation ! I remember a charismatic moment in NYC 
. As I recall, it was when I approached your breakfast table at the outdoor cafe to introduce myself to you, Elke, Kieron, and Marianne. There may have been another moment, as well. 
. I'll think on it . I remember one in an e-mail, too. So, you got two 'for sures', and another 'maybe' 
.
Love ,
Lizzy
Worldwide actions and impact are far more than effective, receiving line behaviour ~ however, that sincerity of one-on-one, when hundreds await, yet the receiver is willing to stand, to 'properly' receive every one, speaks to a different kind of person than is the norm in 'public service' of any nature. No, I'm not saying that it all comes down to this. It's not all about receiving lines and charisma. However, when people had an audience with Pope John Paul II, they knew for certain that they were in his presence, and he in theirs. Feeling the 'invisible commoner' in a line is not a good feeling. It still says much about him.
President Bill Clinton also had that charisma, and the ability to focus one-on-one with those strangers he met.
Henning ~
. Great adaptation ! I remember a charismatic moment in NYC . As I recall, it was when I approached your breakfast table at the outdoor cafe to introduce myself to you, Elke, Kieron, and Marianne. There may have been another moment, as well. . I'll think on it . I remember one in an e-mail, too. So, you got two 'for sures', and another 'maybe' .Love
,Lizzy
That may be an understatement but I go along with the rest of what Henning said. I'd say his failures and successes are on a different scale and not like any of us.He failed and succeeded like any of us.
p.s. On second thoughts myself and Henning are probably talking of two different things.....very subtly so.
Yeah...I figured so a little later. I'd go further to say that we all have the capacity to be anything we want to be but it is only in rare individuals that all the variables and intangibles (determination, single-mindedness etc etc) come together in harmony so that thay are able to shape the world in some way.
Bee and Mirek also make an important point earlier....its easy to sit in our cozy apartments and be armchair-Guevaras, it takes a lot of courage to actually put yourself out there and face the music. Even with the best of intentions you can never be good to all people all the time. Most especially not in the late 20th/21st century media driven world where every action is open to scrutiny.
And one final point on this thread for me....I don't know how many realize that in the situation the Pope was in - in his last days - it takes a lot of courage to just sit up straight in a chair and come to window to acknowledge folks below.
Bee and Mirek also make an important point earlier....its easy to sit in our cozy apartments and be armchair-Guevaras, it takes a lot of courage to actually put yourself out there and face the music. Even with the best of intentions you can never be good to all people all the time. Most especially not in the late 20th/21st century media driven world where every action is open to scrutiny.
And one final point on this thread for me....I don't know how many realize that in the situation the Pope was in - in his last days - it takes a lot of courage to just sit up straight in a chair and come to window to acknowledge folks below.
I don’t really know exactly what the others who have posted on this thread mean by “a good man” but reading the posts has given me a pretty good idea regarding what criteria are used in judging this particular man.
For me the point is not whether the man had charisma or staying power, or whether he said and did several things that can be regarded as graciousness in a public figure when so many other public figures behave like louts.
Because of his position in the church – regardless of how he got there - the pope is a very public figure, a world leader. His attitudes and actions have impact as his followers in the church are influenced by what their leader advocates in thought, word and deed. He has a heavy responsibility – not only towards his church and his god – but towards the human race in general.
With this I mind would it not be a reasonable expectation for the representative of a christian organisation to be on the side of justice and individual rights? Would it not be reasonable to expect this person to be concerned about the abuse of children entrusted to the care of his representatives and do all in his power to rid his organisation of the stigma of that abuse? Is it not reasonable to expect him to support the forces of democracy and justice rather than petty dictators and despots? Should he not place the health, safety and welfare of his subjects before a 2000 year old set of rules which have outlived their questionable usefulness?
We can be armchair-Guevaras precisely because that’s all that can reasonably be expected from ordinary people just trying to get on with their lives. Probably not one of us individually or all of us collectively will ever get anywhere even close to the level of influence a pope has, so yes – we can expect – and even demand – from a man who enjoys all the privileges of his exalted position, an abnormally high level of social responsibility.
For me the point is not whether the man had charisma or staying power, or whether he said and did several things that can be regarded as graciousness in a public figure when so many other public figures behave like louts.
Because of his position in the church – regardless of how he got there - the pope is a very public figure, a world leader. His attitudes and actions have impact as his followers in the church are influenced by what their leader advocates in thought, word and deed. He has a heavy responsibility – not only towards his church and his god – but towards the human race in general.
With this I mind would it not be a reasonable expectation for the representative of a christian organisation to be on the side of justice and individual rights? Would it not be reasonable to expect this person to be concerned about the abuse of children entrusted to the care of his representatives and do all in his power to rid his organisation of the stigma of that abuse? Is it not reasonable to expect him to support the forces of democracy and justice rather than petty dictators and despots? Should he not place the health, safety and welfare of his subjects before a 2000 year old set of rules which have outlived their questionable usefulness?
We can be armchair-Guevaras precisely because that’s all that can reasonably be expected from ordinary people just trying to get on with their lives. Probably not one of us individually or all of us collectively will ever get anywhere even close to the level of influence a pope has, so yes – we can expect – and even demand – from a man who enjoys all the privileges of his exalted position, an abnormally high level of social responsibility.
"... to make a pale imitation of reality with twenty-six juggled letters"
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
"... all words are lies because they can only represent one of many levels of being"
Sober noises of morning in a marginal land.
Pope John Paul II ~ Reply #100
Likewise, I'm not so naive as to think that greeting-line mannerisms or charisma make a good man. By the same token, I'm not prepared or inclined to argue or debate Pope John Paul II's papal reign with anyone. I'm not Catholic, former or present. I'll still leave this thread as I began it, saying that Pope John Paul II is a good man.
On the 'other side' of this, within the past month, my mother went to see Archbishop Desmond Tutu speak, in person, near where she lives. She felt, prior to going, and it was reaffirmed for her, that he is a good man. She sent me his book God Has A Dream / A Vision of Hope for Our Time, so I'll be reading that soon. He, also, looks like a good man. After I read what's already in my hands, I'll find a book by Pope John Paul II and read that, too.
Love,
Elizabeth
On the 'other side' of this, within the past month, my mother went to see Archbishop Desmond Tutu speak, in person, near where she lives. She felt, prior to going, and it was reaffirmed for her, that he is a good man. She sent me his book God Has A Dream / A Vision of Hope for Our Time, so I'll be reading that soon. He, also, looks like a good man. After I read what's already in my hands, I'll find a book by Pope John Paul II and read that, too.
Love,
Elizabeth