Thieves on the Forum.

Partisan · Post by **Partisan** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:03 pm

The moral outrage and righteous indignation flowing round this Forum at the moment are a little misplaced. The 'thief' on ebay is no more or less of a thief than the rest of you who trade. You are all 'assuming the rights of the owner' by trading these recordings. You are dealing with these recordings as the owner. The fact that money is exchanged is of no matter. Now, i know the law is different in every country. This may be acceptable in Croatia or Norway, but it isn't in England, and i doubt it is in the US or Canada.

Don't get me wrong, i am no saint and i have done my fair share of copying. However it is untenable to claim some moral highground over someone who charges for what you give for free. We are all just as much thieves.

p.

tomsakic · Post by **tomsakic** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:20 pm

partisan wrote:However it is untenable to claim some moral highground over someone who charges for what you give for free.

I respect your words, and you're right in legal sense - we are stealing the fees from Sony/Columbia (but I don't have feeling that we are stealing from LC, and I only respect artists in this bussines, not some crazy companies who're making fools of all of us with their prices) - but I don't think it's same. (Btw, it's not legal anywhere.) If I change 10 CDRs for 10 CDRs, I don't think it's the same as somebody sell each CDR for 10$. I don't have higher moral position, but isn't it strange that there are people who're actualy making money of it? I can't believe they're selling recordings as to help fans, aren't they?
Glad to see you around again.

jurica · Post by **jurica** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:34 pm

well, partisan, my old friend, there are thieves and then there are thieves. if you trade the way my friend Tom Sakic does, it's theft in a good tradition of Robin Hood. sure, he's a thief. but he's the kind of thief that you'd gladely ask to have dinner with you.

and i'm not being sarcastic. if you trade something that can only add to popularity of an artist, and he does not receive any money from that recording anyway... it's a 'good' sort of theft.

i, on the other hand, have downloaded, recorded from other people or simillar the greatest part of my record collection. so, i don't take higher moral stand. still, i think even that is better than selling for profit.

we're all different kind of thieves, partisan. like there are different murrderers... some killed for fun, some killed for profit, and some (soldiers in WWII for example) killed to prevent more murders.

kolesen · Post by **kolesen** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 2:52 am

Sorry to join this conversation so long after it began, but there is one part of the trading as theft discussion that I don't recall seeing here. It seems to me, and to most of the very serious traders I know, that the deciding factor in the legitimacy of trading (and taping for that matter) is whether or not the artist approves. Some artists, starting I think, with the Grateful Dead have encouraged fans to tape and trade or give away copies of live performances. I have always assumed that Leonard Cohen approves of the trading and sharing of his live performances. I only remember reading one statement he made in an interview where he seemed to be a little surprised at the degree of loyality or devotion that many of his fans display, and his comments and position seemed to be along the lines of "whatever, it doesn't seem to harm anyone." Perhaps Jarkko or Tom could elaborate on this.
Keith

Post by **jarkko** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:33 pm

Leonard has always been very understanding in this matter.

linda_lakeside · Post by **linda_lakeside** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:05 pm

Partisan, it is legal in Canada. For now.

Linda.

tomsakic · Post by **tomsakic** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:18 am

Basel 1985

LC: We have been for the past twenty years in some kind of a magnificent flowering of song and music and I think there will come a time when people's want to study what was going on in this kind of document would have some relevance.
Interviewer : So you actually don't mind if people record your concerts
to the fans ?
LC: I myself don't mind. The record companies and the people that are involved in the whole enterprise of course they gonna be very weary of that sort of thing, but if someone is just recording a concert privately to use himself and you know he's not immediately going to rush to the presses and sell them, I can't say I'm very upset about that.

Thanks for Jenny, Keith, I love it.

linda_lakeside · Post by **linda_lakeside** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:21 pm

Wonderful! From his own lips! Good, good, good! Love it.

Linda.

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:42 pm

someone is just recording a concert privately to use himself and you know he's not immediately going to rush to the presses and sell them, I can't say I'm very upset about that.

I think that is our bugbear. The ones who profit. Not the swoppers.

linda_lakeside · Post by **linda_lakeside** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:56 pm

Paula,

Yes. You're right. But I don't think that this forum or the 'powers that be' have any control over those that profit. We just have to live with it I guess.
I don't know what the solution is, but it will have to come from sources with more power and means of control than we have. We can gripe all we like but it's not likely to change things.

Such is life. We need an emoticon for a long, resigned sigh. I'd put it here.

Linda.

Tchocolatl · Post by **Tchocolatl** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:28 am

Just do not buy anything. Then there will be dealers with no market, which will mean no possible transaction. Problem solved. Who's next?

(To dance the tango, one must be two (wait a minute, let me think twice about it, just one time))

For the rest : lets do it!!! (It is not because I do not want to trade that I'm againts - ah-ha - surprised? Well, what can I say? It's like that) If I understood well, this is how we got Tennesse Waltz on DH. And as long as the music companies are not keeping a trace of everything, I consider a "moral duty" to do it.

linda_lakeside · Post by **linda_lakeside** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:42 am

Hi Tchoco,

I'm not sure if I read you correctly, but I'm sure Leonard's publishing and record company have permission from the copyright owner's of Tennessee Waltz to have used the song and royalties will be paid to the copyright owners. TW may even be in the public domain leaving it free for anyone to use.

If this is not what you meant, then I'm wrong and you're right and I'm sorry.

See you,
Linda.

Tchocolatl · Post by **Tchocolatl** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:36 am

My vote also goes to Montreux. Two years ago I sent three
different audience CDRs to Leonard's office (on their request),
all taped during the Various Positions tour (in three locations, not by
myself but other Cohenites).
I don't know if any of these were actually used, or did they finally find
a better recording from the archives. Digital remastering and editing can
make miracles - Field Commander Cohen is another proof of that!

--- I agree with Anth that Leonard's photos should not be used as avatars- Jarkko

Linda, I meant that. If I understood well the track may be done from a bootleg, maybe.

Here! If someone can send a bootleg of Suzanne by Penny Lang, there we'll have our 1000 cover!!

P.S. : Hum-hum I see someone on the forum still using a photo of LC as avatar. But ey! enough! I'm not a stool sorry.

linda_lakeside · Post by **linda_lakeside** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:37 am

No, Tchoco, you are not a stool.

. And don't be sorry! Be glad!!

If there were an emoticon with someone laughing with tears running down their face, it would be here. In a good way, Tchoco. In the best way!

Linda.

ForYourSmile · Post by **ForYourSmile** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:36 am

Probably someone has enough with The Essential, but What does it happen if a fan needs more than the official discography? Has he to turn into a despicable thief?

I have bought everything what Cohen has put on sale, in occasions two and up to three times. The first vinyl of Songs From a Room wore away the second one was replaced by the CD. Also sometimes I have bought them to give, as a present, in an attitude of proselytism not always understood well

. I do not accept illegal copies, mainly by respect to the work's rights, the copyright.

The wealth of the Cohen's lives ones are surprising, even within the same tour. And some of us are ready to know it. And, for what I could have read in this site, Cohen is not opposed, is more, it seems that he pleases our interest. A wonderful news, on one hand a example of his generosity, for another a liberation of these feelings of guilt.

In the secret camera of the castle I listened to my bootlegs of Barcelona like who puts a stolen masterpiece to be contemplated in exclusive feature. Now I have shared them and I feel very well. Maybe someday someone tries to sell them - a bit I would be surprised for its little quality (analog audience) - but in a way, "and you won't make me jealous if I hear that they've sweetened your night".

Like in the love, the best thing is the trade 1:1. I have to say that my experience has been very good, have found generous and patient people to there show me, for example the use and advantages of the formats lossless.

I could have observed his care to support the quality of the copies and the constant notice of which this one is not stuff in sale.

Undoubtedly I have been lucky; I had my bootlegs and those that I obtained with the gifts (not trades) that we did the fans and friends of Barcelona. Not great thing comparable to the lists that we can see that away, but with it has been sufficient to begin.

On the other hand we have to understand that the beginning can turn into something difficult. The answers to the topic "live recordings ... where to start" did not help very much. The one who does not have anything to change is condemned to buy...

if he does not find very good souls.

Almost I can assure that I will never pay for it, and undoubtedly I won't sell. I do not like those who deal multiplying the value of something and selling what is not his

. But, I dare to raise a idea: they also are collectors, I suppose that been interested in Cohen and that with what they do can never earn a fortune.

Antoni

Thieves on the Forum.

Thieves on the Forum.

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