Sexy Cohen?

[Bobbie]

I think Stina is an incredibly talented journalist, very well known and respected in Scandinavia, and I think she conducted her interview with Leonard brilliantly - she wasn't intimidated, and she was comfortable in asking about what she wanted to know - her attitude and the questions she chose caused him to laugh and grin, made his eyes twinkle (but I don't think he blushed.. ) and he came up with some very witty off the cuff answers for her - he was clearly enjoying his own sense of humour. The exchange between them was flirtatious at times, and it was obvious they were both enjoying that energy. This wasn't Stina's first interview with Leonard - he knew already what she wa about. If he didn't have an idea what he was in for, I don't think he would have agreed to another interview with her. Besides, she didn't complain about all that chain smoking...

Bobbie's .02

[linda_lakeside]

Hi all!

It seems I've re-joined the conversation at a rather late date! How much I've missed.

First, Ghoti - thank you for saying that. I didn't know if I had offended you as we've just 'met'. It's very hard to keep up with all the conversations going on at the same time! Lose a day and an entire volume of the LC files goes right on by. Hopefully, we'll catch up to one another in another thread and we can start again on another topic. Or even repeat ourselves on the same topic.

On Chelsea Hotel - I've never considered it a song of seduction. There are many more in his repertoire that fit that bill. Myself, I like "Light as a Breeze", but of course, that is also open to interpretation.

As for sex and the media, I don't know what the average American stations show/talks about, but in Canada, just about anything goes. Even in politics. The phrase is "the only scandal that will hurt a politicians career is if he's caught with a dead girl or a live boy". Sorry. The hidden "they" said it, I just repeated it. I don't think sex is all that titillating/controversial in conversation anymore, is it? or is it?

As for Leonard himself, yes, he is sexy, in my opinion but not in everyone's opinion. Much of it is about his 'mystique' also the sensual content of many of his songs/poems. Most of it is about the 'intensity' with which he's lived his life. For me, at least.

Again, too little and too late (meaning my contribution and timing thereof).

Linda.

[Tchocolatl]

Thanks Bobbie(2?) for the account of the interview. Like I said I have read it (or some parts of it), but it is not like seing the interview and witness all the non-verbal communication. A lot is lost at this level when you only read an account and those details are not disclosed. I did not think it was serious at all I'm happy to read that Stina was playing that she was not intentionally lacking respect to him - that she was not stupid, but in the contrary, she was teasing him in a very challenging manner, according him the credit that he can deal with the heat.

However, he seems to avoid journalists a lot. Maybe he is tired of those games? Or maybe he wish that it could all be games and not so serious? Who knows?

Tom d, the ancient greek society was base on wars. I do not think that in this case it was a metaphor for a very abstract concept. A citizen must be a good warrior. War was at the root of the economy as well.

As for the yin-yang thing, oxymorons, etc. I would have a LOT to say about this. Too long. For now. Another time, another thread maybe or maybe not.

I never see Chealsy Hotel as a song about seduction, just another report of what is going on in the world, in this case in the world of pos stars of the time. The guy is an historian. Can't you see?

Tom S. He made his bread and butter about being a modern troubadour odes to many Ladies.

Lizzytysh, "Because of a few songs in which I was ... of their mystery women.... exceptionally kind to my old age" for me it is speaking more to women "at large" than to women that where part of his life as companion.

Oh! 'have to stop writting, now...

[lizzytysh]

Hi Tchocolatl ~

Well, I still believe the same about the interview. It seemed to me that Stina unnecessarily put him 'on the hot seat' ~ though he dealt with it well. See how you feel about it, if/when you finally see it. I think Leonard is adept at laughing things off; it doesn't mean he appreciates being put in that position, however. For someone who protects his privacy as he does, I really can't imagine that he likes having to deal with his sexuality in 'worldwide' interviews. That's what his songs are 'for' [not exclusively ~ at all ~ but inclusive of that, certainly. I agree with Tom Sakic about his songs.] Sometimes interviewers are determined to be 'bravado' in their questioning; but, it's a tactic intended to reflect more 'on them' than it is to accomplish something in communication, within the interview itself. That's how Stina came across to me. If you compare her interview in Paris of him with her interview on Mt. Baldy, you'll see a striking difference in her demeanor and questioning with him.

I feel that in "Because Of," he is addressing women he's known, not the female population of society, in general....though they may not have been companions.

I'll quote myself and then italicize the words that are relevant to my making that point:

". . . the women who have intimately given themselves to him ~ and he makes the point that intimacy comes in many forms. I feel this song is a thank you to the women who have been in his truly personal life, to whatever degree."

~ Lizzy

[Ghoti]

Glad to hear from you again Linda, it appears we both think we inadvertantly offended the other so let's just stop the buck here. I can relate to your dilemma, every day when I check the forum an entire day's worth has been added to each conversation due to the time differance. I don't think Chelsea Hotel is a seduction song, on the contrary it seems to imply a casual "love" that needs no seduction or ponp or "All of that Jazzing Around". He doesn't romanticise it, giving him head on an unmade bed is not the candle-lit, eyegazing that a lot of songs (by other artists) suggest.
As for censorship its not stricly the domain of the American right. Earlier this week I saw a programme on british Channel Four about "T.V They Tried to Ban" one voicemail caomplaint included in the show went something similar to:

"I was disguisted to see a documentary on sex with animals on television. I think it is Evil and would use a stronger word if I knew it. What next, Gay Sex?!?"



What are the opinions of the americans on this site to the censorship of comedian Bill Hicks on th Tongiht Show a few years back?

[linda_lakeside]

Hi Ghoti,

Nice to see you again. I lost more than one day's worth of forum, it was closer to a week. That hasn't happened since I registered, I don't think. It's odd when one leaves for even a short while, when you return, there are new threads, new people. It's like starting over every time.

I agree with your take on Chelsea Hotel. I'm not left with the feeling that roses were left on the pillow and 'all that jivin' around'. Leonard has an entire catalogue of material that deals with matters of the heart as opposed to matters of the head, so to speak.

As for sex and censorship, there are certainly some strange examples of what is considered 'improper' or 'proper'. I think part of it is the confusion over what is considered 'politically correct' and then something truly weird slips in under the wire. These days there are so many differing habits to feed that just about anything is in demand. It is truly a 'to each their own' world. The problem is, some people think that the whole fam damily has to think exactly the way they do.

Nice bumping into you once more. I was not offended, hope you weren't. In fact, I think I can safely say we're pretty sure that neither were (if that sentence sounded convulted it's because it was/is). It's awkward at times, trying to talk to someone when you can't hear their voice or see their face. I know that for sure, because I've heard other people say it.

See you later,
Linda.[/i]

[Tchocolatl]

Lizzytysh, I like to read the different accounts of the interview, and each point of view sheds a different ligth on it, but just more light, in any case it is doing shadow one to another. Some day I may see the interview. It is not a priority for me, at all. It seems, that the most important to me is to listen the pieces I like most and share point of views about it with as-fan-as-I-am other fans.

I am not worry for Leonard Cohen, he is an old timer of the show business. I'm sure he can handle an interview. He once said that to do this job you have to have a thick skin in order to survive to critic and to flattery (Tom S, please correct if I did not use the accurate terms, thanks in advance). I am not so sure, however, that he is enjoying to do all this side of the job as well as appearing in public again. I wonder if he will show up for the next "event" - new book and/or CD.

As for "Because of", I see what you mean. It may be a "thank you" to women in general. And in particular : your quotes, in fact seems relevant in regard of that point. It would not be the first time he would have create a many levels song. I say this because "because of a few songs" - he is not only singing in his shower, actually He has a large audience in the contrary, an he is attracting for women listeners. When I bought DH, only women where buying the CD, the stand was like a busy bees nest - and of all ages and features.

P.S. : Yes, many threads, many posts, many subjects in the posts, can't keep up with everything also.

[lizzytysh]

Yes, Tchocolatl, and we all perceive things differently, besides [now, there's a new notion ]. Ah well. Yes, he can certainly handle it, whatever it is. Likewise, it appears he chose not to handle it ~ any of it ~ with his Dear Heather cd. Let me know if you ever see one or the other or both of these interviews. For now, I feel 'done with' that aspect of this topic. Of course, you never know..... .

~ Lizzy

[tomsakic]

Linda - Light As The Breeze is cleberation of love ~ one of his best songs ever. So deadly slow, so deep, thousand kisses deep... hmm

Maybe I can indulge in my Collector's Corner Moderator role, and say something about chain-of-love-and-sharing... If margaret sent Stina's VCD to Linda, maybe Linda could send new copy to her compatriate Just a thought. I know, I know, I owe CDs to so many people, who am I to say anything

[Tchocolatl]

Yes, L. Not a new notion, but a notion that is always fresh (in the best sense of the term.)

In fact, yes, we all have a different point of view, but it is funny how they could be easily divided into groups. Just think about people who like Leonard Cohen and people who don't. And into these groups, many other groups. People who like his songs and poems but not his novels. People who etc. etc. until you came across opinions that can not be classified. Then you put it on the "miscellaneous" groups. Besides, Lizzytysh, in my eyes, as long as it is decent (according to my very personal standards, I know ) I find every point of view interesting. Sometimes I react, many times I let go, in both cases, but everything is interesting in a way or another, in a level or another - to me. In fact it is certainly because I learn a lot. Yes. Even if I do not stress it all the time. (otherwise I would not stick to boards about LC, I guess, to read other fans ).

Tom, I can "pin you down" now! The title of this song is :

The Smokey Life

And the whole song is very beautiful indeed, so light and exquisitely scented smokey that I bring it here.

I've never seen your eyes so wide
I've never seen your appetite quite this occupied
Elsewhere is your feast of love
I know ... where long ago we agreed to keep it light
So lets be married one more night

It's light, light enough
To let it go
It's light enough to let it go

Remember when the scenery started fading
I held you til you learned to walk on air
So don't look down the ground is gone,
there's no one waiting anyway
The Smoky Life is practiced
Everywhere

So set your restless heart at ease
Take a lesson from these Autumn leaves
They waste no time waiting for the snow
Don't argue now you'll be late
There is nothing to investigate

It's light enough, light enough
To let it go
Light enough to let it go

Remember when the scenery started fading
I held you til you learned to walk on air
So don't look down the ground is gone,
there's no one waiting anyway
The Smoky Life is practiced everywhere

Come on back if the moment lends
You can look up all my very closest friends

Light, light enough
To let it go
It's light enough to let it go

***

But. But. A love song? Another song full of tenderness and impossibilities in term of long term love relationship. Nothing soapy again. Very mezmerizing and light when you just listen to the song. And very deep and... deep when you are thinking about the meaning.

Again, it is all a little page of history - the way a certain generation, under the reign of LSD Pope and other substances to travel trough level of conciousness, was thinking about love relationship. In a museum I would put the fiml "Hair" and this song, in the same room.

Chain-of-love (and-sharing)? Indeed, love is taking so many forms. Never soapy, love, just like "our" Leonard (Not that I do not love you, just that I can not be chained : 1+ 1 does not always = 2, please do not made false ideas' associations )

Sincere warm thoughts [/i] (and smile) to everybody, have a nice day!

[Whisper it quietly]

I think Stina is an incredibly talented journalist, very well known and respected in Scandinavia, and I think she conducted her interview with Leonard brilliantly - she wasn't intimidated, and she was comfortable in asking about what she wanted to know - her attitude and the questions she chose caused him to laugh and grin, made his eyes twinkle (but I don't think he blushed.. ) and he came up with some very witty off the cuff answers for her - he was clearly enjoying his own sense of humour. The exchange between them was flirtatious at times, and it was obvious they were both enjoying that energy. This wasn't Stina's first interview with Leonard - he knew already what she wa about. If he didn't have an idea what he was in for, I don't think he would have agreed to another interview with her. Besides, she didn't complain about all that chain smoking...

Bobbie's .02

Problem for me was that She said She asked all Her friends if there was a question to ask Leonard. All they could come up with was would Leonard sleep with Her? I mean, what's all that about?

[lizzytysh]

Well, my feeling on Stina is that she can certainly be "an incredibly talented journalist, very well known and respected in Scandinavia," but it doesn't necessarily follow that I agree that "she conducted her interview with Leonard brilliantly," even though [agreeably] "she wasn't intimidated, and she was comfortable in asking about what she wanted to know."

My feeling on all of that is that even the best can 'blow' it from time to time, and in this particular situation, she did. What Whisper It Quietly has referred to here was the beginning. What kind of friends does she have, anyway.....not the intellectually elite, for sure, if the viewing audience was to assess it based on the women's 'group' question. I felt the 'women's group question' was quite possibly a ruse to begin with, for Stina to hide behind to ask her own question, in a non-humiliating-to-her fashion. C'mon. That's a 'girly-girl' question, if I ever heard one. Even those who say they'd go blank [if in Leonard's presence] if they had to ask him a question; if pressed to do it anyway, they'd come up with better than that.

Okay, so I'm not done with it, after all .

~ Loved your breakdowns of categories. That's it! In a nutshell .

Love to all those who might agree and disagree,
Lizzy

[Bobbie]

Hello Whisper...

Those of us who really follow the work of Leonard Cohen, and have done so for years (for me, since the first album, Songs Of Leonard Cohen, was released) and who appreciate and value him for the brilliance of his work, the insights he gives us, the words he uses to describe our own unexpressed feelings that we didn't know there were words for, and who seldom, if ever, think about L's sex life until something like this arises, see so much more than the person who knows a little bit about Leonard Cohen (whose history and reputation with women precedes him.. face it, it's a fact). Throw in the sexual nature of all of us, and how most people will become titillated, giddy, and act stupid sometimes when it comes to discovering something about someone else's sex life, as in when we find out that "so and so are doing it" - or speaking their own thoughts about sex with someone else or in a public forum, whether it be an interview or some place like this, then it's very reasonable that Stina's friends would come up with that question. We've all noticed how instantly, when the subject of sex comes up, someone is going to giggle, or how we all think jokes about sex are so darn funny, especially if it's a faux pas, illicit, or some dysfunction. (I wonder why that is.) They aren't going to dig deep and think about "what did he mean by thus and so.. ?... or I wonder if the blue raincoat is really a condom?", because maybe they wouldn't be able to relate to it or understand it anyway, or maybe it simply wouldn't be as much fun as knowing who he would sleep with - everyone can relate to the attraction between lovers/potential lovers. On a more serious note, when Stina asked Leonard questions regarding what he meant by certain bits of his work, etc., he replied, grinning all the while, and I paraphrase here... "it was just a joke." That really tickled me... I seriously wonder if he himself remembered what he meant, and here we all are, coming together from all around the world every single day, pondering and asking each other what he meant by something that has affected us so much.. and maybe it turns out that he doesn't always know himself, or he did at one time, but doesn't remember anymore! I absolutely love the irony of that. How many times have you found an abandoned journal you'd written in years ago and felt total surprise at what you'd written, how you felt in those days, how it affected you... you ask yourself, "I really felt that way.. ?" Sometimes you forget the details of your own feelings - thank God.

I don't think the question Stina's friends wanted to know was about anything more than human nature taking it's course... as it does.

Bobbie
back with her .02 again

[Bobbie]

Lizzy... with ALL respect for you, your thoughts here, and with fondness for you.. (I love it that people can agree to disagree, as you and I have done on a few occasions - and still, here we are)... but I must still break the news to you that even intellectuals are human, are interested in sex, and even have sex themselves... hehe. I don't think that question was a reflection on Stina or her friends - it was about nothing more than human nature. We have no idea who Stina's friends are, or what their intellectual capacity is. Leonard is an intellectual who has written about, talked about, and indulged in a lot of sex - or so we are led to believe.

What this discussion basically comes down to, it seems, is points of view that differ.. none of our thoughts are right or wrong - they're just different.

I love the Buddhist take on life, herewith..

Show up
Pay attention
Practice kindness
Let go


Bobbie

[lizzytysh]

Hey, Bobbie ~

Still, disagreement and all, when it comes to a 'professional' interview, Ms. Stina lapsed in my opinion. How I went about making that point is a different matter. No slight to Buddhist philosophy intended.

Given that groundbreaking news, regarding intellectuals' interest in sex [I'm guessing he must know it, too ], I'm surprised Leonard chose to not answer Stina's questions as straightforwardly as she'd asked them [apparently hoping for those straightforward answers ~ else, why ask?].

I loved the interview for Leonard's ways of handling things, and the things he said, in spite of how Stina came across to me. I guess, maybe[?] her priorities have changed since her interview with him on Mt. Baldy? That's sorta where I came in on this movie ~ "Hey, big guy, what'cha' doin' now that you're down from that big mountain?"

I enjoyed your answer to Whisper.

Still agreeing to disagree,
Lizzy